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What happens if I have a Hive Tyrant with 2 guard and a tyranid prime and both tyrant guard got killed?
The Hive Tyrant and tyranid prime remain, but normally they're not allowed to join eachother...

At the end of the next movement phase that the Tyrant and Prime aren't in close combat, they become separate units since the IC rules will propel them apart.

The tyrant is not, surely a unit that can only ever contain a single model?

When it joins Tyrant Guard it becomes a singular unit, as the HT is *not* an IC, it just gets to join "as" an IC (and ONLY join, no other benefits such as being able to leave) - so the HT and Guard form a singular unit.

THus, there is no issue with the Prime joining the HT *even if* the HT is by himself.

Nos, doesn't it have to be from the codex?
So the unit composition is "1 Hive Tyrant".

Solkan, As far as I can tell there is no rule forcing an IC to leave a unit that has become an illegal one to join. So if ones has managed to legally have this unit occour it can quite happily tromp about until it's forced to break cohearence.

@Nos: Isn't that exactly what it is?

They are both joined to the tyrant guard rather than each other. If the guard are destroyed there is nothing keeping them together, imo.

The prime joins thecombined HT plus TG unit. It is probable that this is not the same unit as a naked HT, but that isn't an issue as you are no longer joining the unit, you are joined. you can't leave the rejoin, but I can't see anything that forces you apart

Well, um not quite. If you guys will recall on back to the discussions regarding SM characters and their abilities and their joining units where another IC was already attached there was a particular situation which emerged releveant to this discussion.

IC alpha w/ Super Thing joins TROOPS
Ability yielded when attaching to unit is SUPER THING for all in unit. Literally, what happended, is a new unit consisting of the IC and TROOPS was born, and THAT unit, and ONLY that unit got the bump with its birth.

In this limited context, this newly birthed unit exist until all the TROOPS are dead, b/c the unit consists of latest IC + Component Parts Troop Unit. Or, until the IC is caput.

If there are no longer any Component Parts Unit, then there is only the latest IC left.

If there is no longer an IC, then there is only the TROOPS ( who will have lost SUPER THING)

Now.....
Here Comes, IC beta w/ Dooper di Do.
Attaches to Combined ICalpha/TROOP.
ICalpha/TROOP loses SUPER THING, because the ICalpha/TROOP ceases to exist as soon as IC beta attaches.

Instead now the new unit created is Latest IC + Component parts of whatever the hell was there before.

Note: When ICalpha was attached to TROOPS and became 1 (read: one) unit, and then was itself attached against, then that was the combination of 1 new IC to a preexisting unit.

So the way it works is this...

As stated the new units consist of IC beta + whatever was there before.

So, in other words to answer the question....

IC beta considers itself still attached to its unit until the unit it attached to dissapears. Again, it did not attach to ICalpha and TROOPS, it attached to ICalpha/TROOPS, one single unit.

Literally, this means IC beta considers itself attached until everything it connected to dies or chooses to leave, thus reducing component parts down towards 0.

On the other end, ICalpha was noted as having ceased to think of itself as ICalpha as soon as it joined TROOPS. Now, ICalpha has expanded its comonent attached parts list so that it considers itself attached until such times as not only TROOPS are gone, but also that IC beta is too.


...


God, I have a headache. Someone more rational, and clearminded tackle it.

HT + TG = 1 unit. That unit is not always composed of 1 model, therefore an IC can join it.

ICs are prohibited from JOINING, but not from *staying* joined to, a unit that always consists of 1 model.

So, to be safe, you could not join a HT to a Prime, but you COULD join HT to TG to Prime, and even if the TG die the Prime can *remain* joined to the HT.

Can the unit that is the Hive Tyrant ever be part of a unit that is more than a single model?

Yes, it can join Tyrant Guard.

The restriction is not on units purchased as a single model.

kirsanth - my reticence to conclude that is that the *HT* is not a unit of more than one model, as the unit is "HT + TG" - the same as a unit of GK with a non-GK IC attached is no longer a GK unit, the combined unit is therefore not a HT unit.

So it can definitely join a HT_TG unit, and once joined it is not forced apart as the only resitrction is on joining.

Can the model ever be part of a multi-model unit?

I do understand your reticence; if it said that the unit was purchased as a single model, I would agree.

This issue with GK is actually quite different as there is a second restriction in effect.

Except that is not the restrition: an IC cannot join a units that is always one model.

The [HT] unit IS always 1 model. Same as an IC - if it werent for the specific allowance 2 ICs could not join, as each consists of a single model unit that is always a single model unit.

The [HT+TG] unit is NOT the same as the [HT] unit, so you cannot say that the existence of the [HT+TG] unit means a prime could join just a HT

If a HT is always one model, how is it in a unit with TG?

ChrisCP wrote:Solkan, As far as I can tell there is no rule forcing an IC to leave a unit that has become an illegal one to join. So if ones has managed to legally have this unit occour it can quite happily tromp about until it's forced to break cohearence.

The rule which would force the IC to leave the Tyrant is "If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it ..." The argument for repulsion goes that the IC cannot join the lone Tyrant (although it could join the combined Tyrant+Guard unit), so it's forced out of coherency.

Admittedly, the rule in question is probably the one most likely to be dismissed or house ruled against due to bad writing and unforeseen consequences.

Another tac. . .

If a broodlord is all that is left of a squad, can an IC join it?

Broodlords can only be in a unit that is BL + GS.

kirsanth wrote:Another tac. . .

If a broodlord is all that is left of a squad, can an IC join it?

Broodlords can only be in a unit that is BL + GS.

Broodlords are not a unit of always 1 model.

Hive Tyrants are.

kirsanth wrote:Another tac. . .

If a broodlord is all that is left of a squad, can an IC join it?

Broodlords can only be in a unit that is BL + GS.

But a broodlord is an upgraded GS not a unit that can ever be purchased seperately.

So when a HT is joined in a unit with 3 TG, how many models are in the HT's unit?

I mean, how can a model that is allowed to join a unit be considered a model that is always a single model unit?

If there is a way to make the unit contain more than a single model, that unit can be joined by an IC.

kirsanth wrote:So when a HT is joined in a unit with 3 TG, how many models are in the HT's unit?

One. The Hive Tyrant.

How many models are in the HT-TG Unit? between 2 and 4. The tyrant itself is ALWAYS a unit of 1.

solkan - except that does not force it away, as it is not attempting to join the unit - it is *already* joined.

The HT as a UNIT is always 1 model. HT+TG is more than 1 model, but that ISN'T the question.

So the HT can be targeted?

Since it is a unit of one?

"A single Hive Tyrant. . . may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character"

"A single Hive Tyrant. . . may join a unit"

"They cannot, however, join . . . units that always consist of a single model"

That HT+TG unit is not a single model.

/shrug


Going to have a hard time reading it otherwise.
I guess this goes on my list.

In all fairness, it is not something I see encountering anyway.

editing to add:
I get the distinction people are trying to make. Really.
I just do not see the joined unit as being 2 units.

No, while it is with the TG it is not a unit of one. IT is, however, NOT A HT UNIT. It is a HT+TG unit.

The joined unit is not two units, however that is the point - the HT is a unit of 1 model. HT+TG is a unit of 2-4 models. HT /= HT+TG, therefore a HT by himself IS a UNIT consisting of always one model, in the same way an IC is always a UNIT consisting of one model - when it joins another unit it is NOT an "IC" unit, but an "IC+troop" unit.