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Ok so I've noticed a common theme with shotguns...namely that they suck and serve little to no purpose as units that can take them have better options/no need for the "ability to assault" bonus that they provide
So I was wondering, to better reprisent Their ability, why not give them rending? to reprisent the sickening level of damage shotguns to do flesh and bone (those of you who have seen shotgun wounds know what I'm talking about) or better yet, shorten their range And give them rending, to really represent how they function? something like Rg 12"/6" St 3 AP - Assault 3, Rending

Shotguns serve a specialist purpose, they allow an assault oriented unit to fire off a burst of fire at close range before assaulting. Given shotguns in the real world are used for a specialist purpose, this seems alright to me.

The argument to change the weapon seems based entirely around shotguns being totally more awesome because they fire big bullets, which is a very dubious reason to redesign a weapon.

yeah, there's a reason why basic Imperial Guardsmen don't use shotguns, like Sebster said, they have a specialist role, I would use them in tandem with Melta Guns because, well, why not? it's not like a Lasgun would be more tactical, might as well.

if they could rend then so many players could use them as a one shot then assault suicide unit, and it would work. a shotgun can still kill (or incapacitate as the case would be) a Space Marine, it may not happen often but it's logical for that to be the case. I mean, people can survive a civilian shotgun to the face at 5 metres if they're lucky and you need to remember that in battle you won't always get the chance to aim let alone a killing shot. it's not like in a demonstration where you can display the killing power of a shotgun on a mannequin, you could just hit the cetre of the enemies bulletproof vest, does that sound like a weapon capable of rending? let alone punching through power armour. a lasbolt to the face is pretty worrysome as well

remember, shooting you're enemy isn't enough, you need to make sure they can't shoot back, taking them "out of the game", I don't believe they can do that so efficently and I use shotguns in Counter-Strike all the time!

sorry if I was rambling and repeating myself

Lotet wrote:yeah, there's a reason why basic Imperial Guardsmen don't use shotguns, like Sebster said, they have a specialist role, I would use them in tandem with Melta Guns because, well, why not? it's not like a Lasgun would be more tactical, might as well.
remember, shooting you're enemy isn't enough, you need to make sure they can't shoot back, taking them "out of the game", I don't believe they can do that so efficently and I use shotguns in Counter-Strike all the time!

sorry if I was rambling and repeating myself

lol No you weren't.

It just seems that at the very least a shotgun blast knocks you down (which falls under incapacitated, which the rules mention when describing unsaved wounds: "we imagine they have been incapacitated, knocked out, or otherwise suitably slain")

and if you're firing a huge bullet you're wasting a shotgun. The point of a shotgun IS that it's an assault gun, that you spray and pray, but if all the pellets hit, your screwed. Flak armor (even body armor) is just ripped to pieces, and I think even the mighty space marines would go down from the "lucky shot" rending presents. Furthermore, you never wanna assault with IG anyways, cause 9/10 times they'll get eaten alive, and that is NOT what meltavets are for...maybe plasma vets, but not melta

And for that matter neither should space marine scouts...the bolter is a far better weapon and if one wants to use them in assault giving them all CC weapons is a better bet anyways.

In short, it just seems to me like the game treats shotguns like what they would be in a long range world: pure
without considering their purpose: at short range, a shotgun is god (CoDMW2 is probably the best reprisentation: the favella special ops missions: the AA12, and even the akimbo ranger, are all ideal weapons when travelling thru the cramped alleys and tiny buildings. and even tho every shot doesn't instantly kill, there is the odd time you squeeze off a hurried shot and someone bites all the pellets)

Hence why i suggested the change. shorten the range, but make them rediculously powerfull at that tiny range... because as it is, they're not shotguns, they're stubbers

Bolter - The standard Bolter is a .75 or .998 calibre assault rifle firing explosive rocket rounds similar to a Gyrojet, but much more destructive. Bolt pistols also exist, and heavy bolters are also used as fixed weapons on vehicles and fortifications, or in Space Marine Devastator Squads.

Lot's more powerful than a shotgun, and it does not have Rending. Also shotguns are great against light to no armour personel. Against heavy armoured personel it does very little.

Rending does nto need to be given to shotguns. It does not fit with the weapon.

Lotet wrote:...if they could rend then so many players could use them as a one shot then assault suicide unit, and it would work. ..

Whats wrong with that?

+ rend

I also like another ability they pass out these days: ignores cover (like the sternguard rounds) That would be good too, or even:

both (1 or the other, like mini IG sternguard)

Probably they ought to make a plastic IG shotgun model first eh?

The ignore cover I could agree or, at least lower the cover by -2 so 4+ cover becomes 6+.

The problem with that though, is that they're aren't flamers
the whole point of flamers is like, its a gout of flame like hitting them with a super soaker, but thats subject to wind (hence why it could pottentially blow around cover)
shotguns are more like, stop you in your tracks...but too many units these days ignore pinning

I've thought for a long time that shotguns should provide a defensive bonus, with the whole shooting a Zombie the split second before he tackles and tries to disembowel you. maybe defensive grenades rules or counter-charge, possibly even another shot before they get you

also, flamers were famous for thier use against bunkers. the flames can whip around ruins, sure, but when you fire a flamethrower into a bunker it actually floods it as it tries to escape and find more oxygen, increasing it damage output dastically. outdoors you need the flaming liquid variety, as most are anyway

dbsamurai wrote:you never wanna assault with IG anyways, cause 9/10 times they'll get eaten alive, and that is NOT what meltavets are for...maybe plasma vets, but not melta

ah, but the point is that Melta Guns and Shotguns are Assault weapons while Plasma Guns and Lasguns are Rapid Fire weapons. so it makes you're choice simple between Assault/Charge that happens with rapid fire weapons but can let you hold back and use lasrifles at longer ranges.

it's all about synchronizing

dbsamurai wrote:The problem with that though, is that they're aren't flamers
the whole point of flamers is like, its a gout of flame like hitting them with a super soaker, but thats subject to wind (hence why it could pottentially blow around cover)
shotguns are more like, stop you in your tracks...but too many units these days ignore pinning

Ever hear of Flechette rounds?

Used in Vietnam due to descent AP and able to pen the dense foliage in the jungle better then regular bullets.

2nd edition had a choice of either a high power solid shot or a spread shot with a lower S but a small blast template. Hit models had to make a strength test or fall over.

Couple that with flamed models running around and trying to put themselves out, displacer fields bouncing characters around the table and terminator save rolls having to be made individually, and 2nd edition took a loooong time to play.

What about at half range it adds +1 to hit, and +1 strength? (although in real life it would obliterate a guardsman)

A Black Ram wrote:What about at half range it adds +1 to hit, and +1 strength? (although in real life it would obliterate a guardsman)

I'm not so sure about "obiterate". Flak armor isn't the super suck and is proabably much better than military armored vests today. I think too many people have the BOOM HEADSHOT! mentality here when they really need to picture that your lone guardsman with a shotgun isn't going for a perfectly aimed headshot. Besides (and don't quote me on the next sentance) law enforcement are trained to shoot at the center of mass. It seems logical that a military force would be too yes?

As for knocked down... "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" so for a shotgun to knock you down if your hit it would also knock the shooter down as well (of course with proper bracing you can negate that to an extent what I'm trying to say is that it is probably harder to knock someone down than you may think) then of course there is footing and such. Movie/game physics =/= rl physics. Of course this is coming from someone who owns and regularly shoots a shotgun (among other things) so what would I know?

Overall I have seen too many threads saying how suckgasmic shotguns are when in reality they are probably too good at 12" range (I would say it needs to be 6").

I was just kinda thinking on how the shotgun in Necromunda works, with -1 to hit at long range.

jp400 wrote:

Ever hear of Flechette rounds?

Yea they're my favorite man chewers. But they dont zip do they? (I thought they behaved similar to discarding sabots, like shooting a bullet thats a dart)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrazyThang wrote:

As for knocked down... "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

Overall I have seen too many threads saying how suckgasmic shotguns are when in reality they are probably too good at 12" range (I would say it needs to be 6").

Yea there is, but the thing with spread shot is the reason it stops you dead is as follows
I shoot
I am hit with the recoil of one shot
this sends my one bullet travelling down the barrel and out (at this point buckshot is still essentially a solid mass)
as air seeps through the tiny cracks in this "bullet of balls" they split, like pouring BBs down a shoot
Impact
you are hit with the recoil of one shot, mulitplied by the number of balls, as each ball is travelling at roughly the velocity it was when fired
ergo, while im hit pretty hard (shotguns can have a nasty kick) you're hit 100-150 times, spreading that same impact across your body AND multiplying it by the force of each bullet.
and yea I think they need more of a 6" range too...because the pullets spread pretty quick (like, within 2 metres)

The laws of physics says you're wrong, dbsamurai.

You're also over-estimating the lethality of a shotgun compared to other weapons. Lasguns are more powerful than assault rifles, according to the fluff, and assault rifles do horrible mangling things to people's bodies.

Oh, I am absolutley loving the visual I am getting here. I'm going between flack armor stopping everything (remember, body armor is VERY effective against shotgun pellets), and the fething unlucky Guardsmen being torn to pieces (this assumes bullet teck has improved much [it probably did]).

On topic, I say 6" range, at 3" or closer +1 streangth.

Someone should figure out the distance ratio in 40k. x ft=1 inch

Well, Space Marines are supposed to be 7-8 feet tall.

Sometimes larger.

Although sometimes the smaller races seem about the same size....

If you've ever seen the "real-sized" Space Marines that gives a good idea of it.

EDIT: I'm actually not sure if it's 7-8 feet, but they are gigantic compared to Guardsmen and such.

You'll have to forgive me, in all the commentary about how sucky lasguns are (they call them flashlights for goodness sake) and how stubbers have similar stats and are described as analogous to modern firearms, I forget the fluff (please dont crucify me )
Well I guess visually I have problems with Flak armor stopping pellet rounds for two reasons:
1) It's described as flak armor, similar to how helmets from WWII were primarily for stopping flak, and could easily be pierced by even 9mm or smaller caliber weapons
2) Visually, for a lot of guardsmen it just doesn't reprisent well. Cadians wear flak bras, Vostroyans and Valhallans wear big burly overcoats (which dont seem bulletproof visually) Steal legions and DKoK are similar (litlle armor with clothes counting as the flak armor) Catachans apparantly count on their muscles to save them, Mordians look like they aren't any more armored than Britain in the American Revolution, Tanith are essentially a mix of Catachan and Valhallan, Tallarn are the same problem (their clothes are apparantly bulletproof ) Savlar also wear the iron bra, Kanak are even LESS well armored than catachans, etc etc. Essentially only the Terrax and the Harakoni Warhawks (who all wear carapace armor anyways) Visually have the kind of armor which I could easily believe to stop spread shot. And that's assuming they don't improve modern powder concotions nor do they use flechettes (now THOSE are NASTY)

And yea SM are acutally anywhere from 7-9 ft due to their gene enhancement, so 6" is something like 6 metres really (1:1 metres to inches scale?)

Except that the models are all 'hero scale' as has been discussed so many times before.

I've always pictured shotguns as using slugs and not scatter shot. Assuming that you cannot punch through your opponents armor the next best thing would be to beat the crap out of him with the impact of the shot.

I like where this is going in regards to improving the shotgun since so few units have the option to take it anyway. But we need to make it simple like a shotgun counts as a close combat weapon or something. But this would then make pistols a useless alternative. So balance is tricky.

Also as far as when to assault with Imperial Guard?

A: Anytime that it would deny your opponent Furious Charge or any other bonus that makes the differance between a one turn sweeping advance and two or three turns with their Close Combat specialists locked in combat.

B: Anytime that by doing so you would deny your opponent the chance to choose who they assault for example if your opponent wants to tie-up\kill your Heavy Weapons before they can get a shot off at that nice looking side armor that is begging to be destroyed, it would be wise to have your Infantry Squad charge the enemy instead buying the Heavy Weapons another turn and another shot.

C: When you are at a clear risk of two or more squads being assaulted by one enemy squad it is often wise to sellout the less useful of the two units.

In all of the roles above the Guardsmen that assault will probably be destroyed in a turn or two but it allows you to control the behavior of your opponents units. By adding shotguns to any of these scenarios you allow them to shoot right before charging possibly adding another turn to their survival where as the current lasgun configuration would not.

EDIT: Brackets turned my breakdown into Orkmoticons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strike that, I just did the math real quick in my head and IG Vets with Shotguns are a little under-priced (Not quite OP).

The scenario I was working with is this:

9 IG Vets with shotguns + Vet Sgt with shotgun vs. 15 Orks are around the same price I think. Everyone is out in the open. The IG assault in order to deny the Orks the Furious Assault bonus. 20x shots at BS:4 mean a possible Ld test for the Orks and if they pass the IG still assault. My head math puts between 6-8 Orks dead in one turn before the Orks get to strike back. This doesn't seem too bad if it were any other army but IG troops aren't supposed to be this effective in CC.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:9 IG Vets with shotguns + Vet Sgt with shotgun vs. 15 Orks are around the same price I think. Everyone is out in the open. The IG assault in order to deny the Orks the Furious Assault bonus. 20x shots at BS:4 mean a possible Ld test for the Orks and if they pass the IG still assault. My head math puts between 6-8 Orks dead in one turn before the Orks get to strike back. This doesn't seem too bad if it were any other army but IG troops aren't supposed to be this effective in CC.

actually, an Imperial Guard Veteran squad costs the same points as 9 Boyz and 1 Nob. the guardsman can kill 3.5 Orks with Shooting (Sergent with a Laspistol) and 3 more Orks in Melee. the Orks would kill 3 men in return(yes, Flak armour does have purpose!). well, it's a draw for combat resolution

in battle there's a myriad selection of reasons why shotguns don't annihilate enemies from gunners keeping thier heads down, armour taking the worst of it or even multiple people accidentally shooting the same monster and over-killing it

but like other people have said, there are other games that make shotguns powerful. after all, when your opponent is Toughness 3 and you have a Strength 3 gun that shoots twice you generally have a good chance of killing him but on that same note you wouldn't think that you would be totally screwed if you had an automatic weapon in that situation, would you? shotguns are powerful but you can't expect someone to just die because you shot at them

you should give a brisk look over the Necromunda or Inquisitor games PDFs, they're up for free on Games Workshops site. plus some of the models kick ass

Lotet wrote:shotguns are powerful but you can't expect someone to just die because you shot at them

you should give a brisk look over the Necromunda or Inquisitor games PDFs, they're up for free on Games Workshops site. plus some of the models kick ass

An excellent suggestion, with how GW's been treating specialist games I wasn't aware they even cared enough to post the rules anymore...

But thats another thing, is that (at least fluffwise in the rules) an unsaved wound isnt NECESSARILY a kill, the target is simply unable to continue fighting, which we often assume as death, but incapacitation (which is far more likely with a shotgun) is also included in their suggested reasons for a model being removed...I guess the reason I think there is room for change is that fluff thing (and personally I think shotguns should be an infantry version of the infernus pistol: short range but potentially devastating, only to squishies instead of tanks)