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I played against a space wolves list with two land raiders and could not kill them probably because my leman russ demolisher got killed by long fangs on the first turn but otherwise how do you get rid of them Thanks

Medusas with bastion breacher shells own av14 in the face.

Is this a serious question? If that's the case its just hilarious xD...
Seriously, you're playing the army which has the most and best ways to deal with raiders and you got problems with them? Okay, if a single Demolisher is the only AT you got in your list you should seriously take some time, read through some tacticas (Like Warseer's Tactica Imperium) and re-do your list.

Okay, to make it short I'll list the best ways to kill LRs with Guard:
1. 3x Meltagun Veteran Squads with Chimera/4x Meltagun Command squads with Chimera
2. Manticore, up to 3 S10 pieplates (direct fire) with the fancy AT-Ordnance rule send every raider straight to valhalla.
3. LasCannons, LasCannons and even more LasCannons. Use Vendattas or as a secondary alternative blob squads with commissar, vox and lascannons (order them to "destroy it" and they'll do their worst).
4.. 2x Meltagun Storm Trooper squad with Chimera. Use their scout doctrine to make a 12" scout move towards the enemy and launch your smoke launchers. If the tank survives move another 12", turn it towards the enemy, let the meltas disembark 2" and shoot the enemy raider point blank.
5. LR Vanquisher with LasCannon and Pask should kill every Raider but will suck against anything other than tanks and maybe MCs.
6. Medusas with BB-Shells

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Is this a serious question? If that's the case its just hilarious xD...
Seriously, you're playing the army which has the most and best ways to deal with raiders and you got problems with them? Okay, if a single Demolisher is the only AT you got in your list you should seriously take some time, read through some tacticas (Like Warseer's Tactica Imperium) and re-do your list.

Okay, to make it short I'll list the best ways to kill LRs with Guard:
1. 3x Meltagun Veteran Squads with Chimera
2. Manticore, up to 3 S10 pieplates (direct fire) with the fancy AT-Ordnance rule send every raider straight to valhalla.
3. LasCannons, LasCannons and even more LasCannons. Use Vendattas or as a secondary alternative blob squads with commissar, vox and lascannons (order them to "destroy it" and they'll do their worst).
4.. 2x Meltagun Storm Trooper squad with Chimera. Use their scout doctrine to make a 12" scout move towards the enemy and launch your smoke launchers. If the tank survives move another 12", turn it towards the enemy, let the meltas disembark 2" and shot the enemy raider point blank.
5. LR Vanquisher with LasCannon and Pask should kill every Raider but will suck against anything other than tanks and maybe MCs.
6. Medusas with BB-Shells

I agree.
I back all of this and if your as fearful of tanks as I am you'll arm your command squads, both company and platoon with 3 or 4 melta guns too!
Devil dog squadron, three fast attack melta tanks!

Right, of course I forgot the good ol' 3x Melta/Chim Command squads ^^...
Post edited .

Not sure about devil dogs. Never used them, but would be worried about scatter effect.

Anyway a lot of these weapons have secondary uses because of what they come on. Vendettas will roll up the elite heavy inf like termies or oblits. Big blast high str weapons have obvious application, so that demolisher is not a bad choice. lascannon troops come with of course troops, meaning objective holding and taking. Think about how something can double if it achieves its goal. Almost all of the options thrown out already have great possibility to things besides kill land raiders and that allows for redundancy. Take both the vendetta and the melta vets. If the vendetta kills the land raider the vets grab an objective or shoot up the contents of the raider that just died. If the vets hit it then blow apart some of the other big things with lascannon fire, or rush back to pick up something that needs to be moved. Redundancy means more, and multi purpose redundancy is even better.

The answer is anything including "melta" (including meltabombs), and yeah, manticores rule as well.

not the biggest fan of devil dogs as their points:melta ratio is pretty poor compared to most other options out there.

Also, if you want to be a crazy person, priests can also be lolstastic against raiders.

Ailaros wrote:Also, if you want to be a crazy person, priests can also be lolstastic against raiders.

thanks

In my experience the vanquisher is the most effective destroyed my LR in the first turn

master of ordnance is a good second (cheapest at 30pts )

Way Master Walt wrote:
master of ordnance is a good second (cheapest at 30pts )

Not really.

MoO ALWAYS scatters, and it's just a Basilisk shot. If you roll a hit, it scatters 2d6, if you scatter, it scatters 3d6.

Back on topic, IG has the most ways to kill a LR.

Paskquisherr, Manticore, Demolisher, Meltavets in Chimera or Valk/Vend, 2x melta stormtroopers...A

I'm a Manticore man, myself.

Devil Dogs... they can have a Multi melta as well as their Melta Cannon! So with 2 Melta shots if one does scatter thats unfortunate but atleast you'd get another shot with your Multi Melta! And if you're firing with a 3 vehicle squad you're more than likely to hit with one or two of either weapon!

I played an army with a paskquisher, and he rolled a 1 to hit for 5 turns straight. >.>

Melta veterans would be your best bet though.

The best 3 ways I can think of are the following.

The least aggressive and most safe way to take out a LR with IG is a Medusa with bastion breacher shells.

The middle of the road method is 3 melta vets. It's even more likely to slag a land raider, but the squad's likelihood of survival after they slag the land raider isn't good.

The most aggressive and least safe way is a turn 1 alpha strike assault from a melta gun squad with the demolitions doctrine hopping out of a scout moving Valkyrie. If the Land raider somehow survives 3 melta gun shots then 10 melta bomb autohits will follow.

You could also go with a 3x melta SWS instead of the vets.

Though not as effective as the vets, they are cheaper.

Just try out all the options given and see what works for you.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
4.. 2x Meltagun Storm Trooper squad with Chimera. Use their scout doctrine to make a 12" scout move towards the enemy and launch your smoke launchers. If the tank survives move another 12", turn it towards the enemy, let the meltas disembark 2" and shoot the enemy raider point blank.

Or instead of having to waste points on the chimera and worry about navigating there, you can just take a 5 man squad with 2 melta guns and DEEP STRIKE. You get to reroll any deepstrike rolls if they're not spot on. They usually are the second time around. And I take two of these tank buster squads.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:You could also go with a 3x melta SWS instead of the vets.

Though not as effective as the vets, they are cheaper.

Just try out all the options given and see what works for you.

The base cost of a SWS is 1/2 of a vet squad, but the cost of the melta guns would remain the same. The cost of a transport in a mechanized army would also remain the same, so the final cost with a Chimera is comparing 155 to 120. Vets score an average of 2 melta gun hits per turn, SWS score an average of 1.5 melta gun hits per turn. It's only about a 20% savings on the final point cost, but it's a 25% drop in damage output. Most IG players who take SWS in a mechanized list do so with flamers turning a Chimera into a ghetto hellhound that counts as a scoring unit.

schadenfreude wrote:The best 3 ways I can think of are the following.

The least aggressive and most safe way to take out a LR with IG is a Medusa with bastion breacher shells.

The middle of the road method is 3 melta vets. It's even more likely to slag a land raider, but the squad's likelihood of survival after they slag the land raider isn't good.

The most aggressive and least safe way is a turn 1 alpha strike assault from a melta gun squad with the demolitions doctrine hopping out of a scout moving Valkyrie. If the Land raider somehow survives 3 melta gun shots then 10 melta bomb autohits will follow.

Add the manticore to option 1.........it has the advantage of firing indirect (no cover saves) as well as multiple pieplates (if you roll a 3 or higher)

The devil dog is also not bad....I play with one, and I have noticed that players who field land raiders have an unnatural fear of devil dogs. You can use that to your advantage by being aggressive and scooting forward under cover, and watch while your baseline gets a free ride from enemy shooting, as every antitank weapon will focus on the dog....

One thing nice about shooting at land raiders with blast weapons is that the LR has a large hull, so even if you scatter around 2-3 inches, you will still hit it.

The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

I would respectfully disagree.

The Manticore not only has the advantage of a massive range, it can also fire indirectly. While I admit I do grieve the loss of the AP1 the BB brings, I very much prefer the D3 shots, plus the Ordnance 2D6 pick the highest for armor pen, almost always guaranteeing a pen or glance.

Gavo wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

I would respectfully disagree.

The Manticore not only has the advantage of a massive range, it can also fire indirectly. While I admit I do grieve the loss of the AP1 the BB brings, I very much prefer the D3 shots, plus the Ordnance 2D6 pick the highest for armor pen, almost always guaranteeing a pen or glance.

The key here is the ability to fire indirect...unless the LR uses smoke launchers, firing indirectly denies cover saves, which for me is the key issue...it's a bummer to have the BB penetrate, only for the LR to make the 4+ cover save....and even if the manticore fires direct, if it manages to score 2 direct hits then there is a chance that the LR will fail a cover save, as compared to the single shot of the medusa...

The best way to kill land raiders is play IG

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the medusa has one advantage, rolling 2D6, and adding the two numbers together, instead of just picking the higher of the two (well, and that it's AP1).

A little over half the time, you get a 5 or 6 with regular ordnance, while with a medusa, most of the time you roll a 6, 7, or 8. So really, it comes down to, on average, a 16-18 compared to a 15-16. The real question is is the extra point or two worth more than...

- attacking side armor with every shot?
- ignoring cover with every shot?
- getting 2 or 3 shots most of the time?
- being able to take down multiple vehicles in a single shot?

Any one of these things would make the manticore better at killing tanks than the medusa, but as it is, it gets all four, while also being great against hordes if your opponent doesn't bring any vehicles.

While GW anticipated the medusa to be the anti-tank artillery piece, the way they set things up makes it a poor option compared to the manticore.

I thought that blast weapons always hit vehicles on their side... O_o

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the medusa has one advantage, rolling 2D6, and adding the two numbers together, instead of just picking the higher of the two (well, and that it's AP1).

A little over half the time, you get a 5 or 6 with regular ordnance, while with a medusa, most of the time you roll a 6, 7, or 8. So really, it comes down to, on average, a 16-18 compared to a 15-16. The real question is is the extra point or two worth more than...

- attacking side armor with every shot?
- ignoring cover with every shot?
- getting 2 or 3 shots most of the time?
- being able to take down multiple vehicles in a single shot?

Any one of these things would make the manticore better at killing tanks than the medusa, but as it is, it gets all four, while also being great against hordes if your opponent doesn't bring any vehicles.

While GW anticipated the medusa to be the anti-tank artillery piece, the way they set things up makes it a poor option compared to the manticore.

Side armor means nothing to a land raider.
Cover rarely means anything to a land raider.
1D3 shots per turn averages 2 shots per turn not 2.5 shots per turn. I've noticed manticores roll a 1 as often as they roll a 3.
Taking down multiple vehicles when they are clustered together is a additional utility of the manticore, we're talking about slagging a land raider.

Indirect fire is almost always useless against a Land Raider. Land raiders are rarely ever obscured, out of line of sight even less often than they are obscured, and their side armor is 14. Indirect fire is great against ork battlewagons with a side armor of 14, or Baal Pred with a side armor of 11, but it's almost irrelevant against land raiders. Even if you do find a situation where indirect fire could be used against a land raider the loss of BS to the scatter dice severely penalizes the shot.

Mathhammer time.

How irrelevant is indirect fire against a land raider?
Aimed at the center of a land raider there is less than 4" to the side, about 4" to the front and back, and more than 4" going in a diagonal line towards the corner. For simplicity's sake lets say the scatter needs to be 4" or less to hit the land raider.
Template weapons need to miss on the scatter die, and the 2D6 to miss.
Indirect fire with no BS correction has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter die and a 5/6 chance of missing on the 2D6 for a 55% hitting the land raider.
Direct fire at BS3 has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter dice and a 5/12 chance of missing for a 28% chance of missing the shot *2 for 2 shots and it's a 56% chance of scoring a hit.
Even with 2 shots from the manticore it's a trade off of adding both dice for penetration together instead of choosing the best and AP1 for a 1% increase of scoring a direct hit.

The Maintore has a 5/9 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/3 chance of destroying it for a 18.5% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The Medusa has a 5/6 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/2 chance of destroying it for a 41.7% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The average # of rockets for a medusa is 2 per turn, even if you give the Manticore 2 hits per single Medusa hit 18.5%*2 only=37% compared to the medusa's 41.7%
It's close, but not better. At this point in time you can make an excellent argument that the extra 5% from the medusa is not worth the loss of other functions that the manticore can fill, but to say the manticore is a superior land raider killer is mathematically incorrect.

So what's the final verdict in the medusa V manticore debate? Buy a Colossus instead and tell your melta vets to suck it up and deal with whatever monstrosity comes out of the Land Raider all pissed off that their ride was melted, but if you really want a STR10 gun the manticore is better overall just not against land raiders.

tldr wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
4.. 2x Meltagun Storm Trooper squad with Chimera. Use their scout doctrine to make a 12" scout move towards the enemy and launch your smoke launchers. If the tank survives move another 12", turn it towards the enemy, let the meltas disembark 2" and shoot the enemy raider point blank.

Or instead of having to waste points on the chimera and worry about navigating there, you can just take a 5 man squad with 2 melta guns and DEEP STRIKE. You get to reroll any deepstrike rolls if they're not spot on. They usually are the second time around. And I take two of these tank buster squads.

And what will you do if you're suddenly playing with your all-comers list against an ork-horde?
The chimera gives the squad flexibility as they gain extra protection and a HF and Multilaser.

Infiltrating melta storm troopers and melta vets/ccs in valk can take our raiders on first turn.

schadenfreude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the medusa has one advantage, rolling 2D6, and adding the two numbers together, instead of just picking the higher of the two (well, and that it's AP1).

A little over half the time, you get a 5 or 6 with regular ordnance, while with a medusa, most of the time you roll a 6, 7, or 8. So really, it comes down to, on average, a 16-18 compared to a 15-16. The real question is is the extra point or two worth more than...

- attacking side armor with every shot?
- ignoring cover with every shot?
- getting 2 or 3 shots most of the time?
- being able to take down multiple vehicles in a single shot?

Any one of these things would make the manticore better at killing tanks than the medusa, but as it is, it gets all four, while also being great against hordes if your opponent doesn't bring any vehicles.

While GW anticipated the medusa to be the anti-tank artillery piece, the way they set things up makes it a poor option compared to the manticore.

Side armor means nothing to a land raider.
Cover rarely means anything to a land raider.
1D3 shots per turn averages 2 shots per turn not 2.5 shots per turn. I've noticed manticores roll a 1 as often as they roll a 3.
Taking down multiple vehicles when they are clustered together is a additional utility of the manticore, we're talking about slagging a land raider.

Indirect fire is almost always useless against a Land Raider. Land raiders are rarely ever obscured, out of line of sight even less often than they are obscured, and their side armor is 14. Indirect fire is great against ork battlewagons with a side armor of 14, or Baal Pred with a side armor of 11, but it's almost irrelevant against land raiders. Even if you do find a situation where indirect fire could be used against a land raider the loss of BS to the scatter dice severely penalizes the shot.

Mathhammer time.

How irrelevant is indirect fire against a land raider?
Aimed at the center of a land raider there is less than 4" to the side, about 4" to the front and back, and more than 4" going in a diagonal line towards the corner. For simplicity's sake lets say the scatter needs to be 4" or less to hit the land raider.
Template weapons need to miss on the scatter die, and the 2D6 to miss.
Indirect fire with no BS correction has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter die and a 5/6 chance of missing on the 2D6 for a 55% hitting the land raider.
Direct fire at BS3 has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter dice and a 5/12 chance of missing for a 28% chance of missing the shot *2 for 2 shots and it's a 56% chance of scoring a hit.
Even with 2 shots from the manticore it's a trade off of adding both dice for penetration together instead of choosing the best and AP1 for a 1% increase of scoring a direct hit.

The Maintore has a 5/9 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/3 chance of destroying it for a 18.5% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The Medusa has a 5/6 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/2 chance of destroying it for a 41.7% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The average # of rockets for a medusa is 2 per turn, even if you give the Manticore 2 hits per single Medusa hit 18.5%*2 only=37% compared to the medusa's 41.7%
It's close, but not better. At this point in time you can make an excellent argument that the extra 5% from the medusa is not worth the loss of other functions that the manticore can fill, but to say the manticore is a superior land raider killer is mathematically incorrect.

So what's the final verdict in the medusa V manticore debate? Buy a Colossus instead and tell your melta vets to suck it up and deal with whatever monstrosity comes out of the Land Raider all pissed off that their ride was melted, but if you really want a STR10 gun the manticore is better overall just not against land raiders.

Actually, even with IF if the target is in LOS, you get to subtract the BS from the scatter roll. And you are mistaken in that cover is irrelevant for LR's...some people play 2 LR's, and if this is the case you can use direct fire versus the front LR, and IF the one at the rear....and in a mech environment rhinos frequently travel with the LR, and can be used as cover....

In your calculations, can you present one where cover IS a factor? What would be the odds then?

freddieyu1 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The medusa with bastion breachers is vastly superior to the manticore when it comes to slagging AV14, but the manticore has a lot more uses compared to the medusa which is a 1 trick pony.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the medusa has one advantage, rolling 2D6, and adding the two numbers together, instead of just picking the higher of the two (well, and that it's AP1).

A little over half the time, you get a 5 or 6 with regular ordnance, while with a medusa, most of the time you roll a 6, 7, or 8. So really, it comes down to, on average, a 16-18 compared to a 15-16. The real question is is the extra point or two worth more than...

- attacking side armor with every shot?
- ignoring cover with every shot?
- getting 2 or 3 shots most of the time?
- being able to take down multiple vehicles in a single shot?

Any one of these things would make the manticore better at killing tanks than the medusa, but as it is, it gets all four, while also being great against hordes if your opponent doesn't bring any vehicles.

While GW anticipated the medusa to be the anti-tank artillery piece, the way they set things up makes it a poor option compared to the manticore.

Side armor means nothing to a land raider.
Cover rarely means anything to a land raider.
1D3 shots per turn averages 2 shots per turn not 2.5 shots per turn. I've noticed manticores roll a 1 as often as they roll a 3.
Taking down multiple vehicles when they are clustered together is a additional utility of the manticore, we're talking about slagging a land raider.

Indirect fire is almost always useless against a Land Raider. Land raiders are rarely ever obscured, out of line of sight even less often than they are obscured, and their side armor is 14. Indirect fire is great against ork battlewagons with a side armor of 14, or Baal Pred with a side armor of 11, but it's almost irrelevant against land raiders. Even if you do find a situation where indirect fire could be used against a land raider the loss of BS to the scatter dice severely penalizes the shot.

Mathhammer time.

How irrelevant is indirect fire against a land raider?
Aimed at the center of a land raider there is less than 4" to the side, about 4" to the front and back, and more than 4" going in a diagonal line towards the corner. For simplicity's sake lets say the scatter needs to be 4" or less to hit the land raider.
Template weapons need to miss on the scatter die, and the 2D6 to miss.
Indirect fire with no BS correction has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter die and a 5/6 chance of missing on the 2D6 for a 55% hitting the land raider.
Direct fire at BS3 has a 2/3 chance of missing on the scatter dice and a 5/12 chance of missing for a 28% chance of missing the shot *2 for 2 shots and it's a 56% chance of scoring a hit.
Even with 2 shots from the manticore it's a trade off of adding both dice for penetration together instead of choosing the best and AP1 for a 1% increase of scoring a direct hit.

The Maintore has a 5/9 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/3 chance of destroying it for a 18.5% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The Medusa has a 5/6 chance of scoring a penetrating hit against a land raider followed by a 1/2 chance of destroying it for a 41.7% chance per hit of destroying the land raider.
The average # of rockets for a medusa is 2 per turn, even if you give the Manticore 2 hits per single Medusa hit 18.5%*2 only=37% compared to the medusa's 41.7%
It's close, but not better. At this point in time you can make an excellent argument that the extra 5% from the medusa is not worth the loss of other functions that the manticore can fill, but to say the manticore is a superior land raider killer is mathematically incorrect.

So what's the final verdict in the medusa V manticore debate? Buy a Colossus instead and tell your melta vets to suck it up and deal with whatever monstrosity comes out of the Land Raider all pissed off that their ride was melted, but if you really want a STR10 gun the manticore is better overall just not against land raiders.

Actually, even with IF if the target is in LOS, you get to subtract the BS from the scatter roll. And you are mistaken in that cover is irrelevant for LR's...some people play 2 LR's, and if this is the case you can use direct fire versus the front LR, and IF the one at the rear....and in a mech environment rhinos frequently travel with the LR, and can be used as cover....

In your calculations, can you present one where cover IS a factor? What would be the odds then?

I've never seen a multi land raider list win against IG or a space marine army. The result always seems to be 500+ points wasted on melta fodder.

In a rare case where the land raider would relieve cover the medusa would be 15% better, but you would be hard pressed to make the case that land raiders receive a cover save even 5% of the time. They are huge models that most players feel are too expensive to risk immobilizing by moving into terrain. A much more likely scenario than dealing with a wave of land raiders is having a melta squad disembark within 6" of a land raider. It would be preferered to pop the tank with artillery 1st, and then melta the survivors enough to force a morale test. The Manticore risks of large pie scattering on top of the melta vets, with multiple shots only increasing the risk. The Medusa only risks a single small pie scattering.

The entire debate is largely irrelevant however as a lot of people just can't see the forest through the trees. We're talking IG here with 100 point melta vet squads.
3 melta shots=2 hits= 1+1/6th of a pen= 58.3% chance of slagging a land raider on a penetrating hit (not counting glancing hits) compared to a 21% chance that a manticore has.

A squad of melta vets is almost 3 times more likely than a manticore to slag a land raider.

Manticore's have their uses, but attempting to slag land raiders is a poor choice of target priorities in an army loaded with BS4 melta squads.
In an army loaded with BS4 melta squads Medusa are a bit redundant.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I played an army with a paskquisher, and he rolled a 1 to hit for 5 turns straight. >.>

Melta veterans would be your best bet though.

He rolled?

If they were six's would "you" have rolled them in that case?

Blaming the miniatures for bad dice rolls is pretty desperate! Honestly, how can you blame a miniature? The Dice gods are to blame dude!