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The way the new rulebook reads it sounds like if a unit of 50 guys (5 across 10 deep) that are int 1 and if 20 are lost aka the front 2 ranks, that the last 8 ranks step up and get to fight like they were in the front when combat started? Say they all have 1 attack so if 10 die the rest step up and do 10 attacks? If so does int seem rather weak now and having more models trumps int. Seems like a really bad rule. any help please !!!!

You are correct. Casualties are taken from the back, only, meaning you can no longer "clear your combat zone" any longer.

Yes, Init (what you meant, not "int" which would be intelligence) means less than it did - but tha tis because when you charge you no longer "strike first", whihc hcanges things somewhat.

It's all well and good that elves will get to strike before the charging orcs, but it won't mean hooey when the orcs all still get to attack and butcher all the elves, anyway... The only reason Black Guard work is their ability to kill lots of dudes quickly and not get attacked back. Elven armies are screwed as their high cost makes them too expensive to field in numbers large enough to matter.

I have played about 4 games of 8th with my DE against Orcs n Gobs, and I must say what Manfred said rings true. Several times I've charged units of Orcs my BG would decimate before, slaughtered quite a few of them as I've always done, but then having just as many of my elves killed in return.

So until the Errata is released, which may not change anything much, elves have been hit pretty hard. I think it will just come down to taking larger units that can withstand the casualties, while killing off the opponent faster than they are killing you.

That is correct. Elves of any flavor are no longer top tier, because they are a) too expensive to have huge units, and b) too frail for small units to have staying power.

Top tier is going to be skaven, O&G, (with hordes of cheap troops) and empire (no more guessing and no limits on special units means a LOT more war machines... and pretty cheap troopsto boot).

evolvingeye wrote:I have played about 4 games of 8th with my DE against Orcs n Gobs, and I must say what Manfred said rings true. Several times I've charged units of Orcs my BG would decimate before, slaughtered quite a few of them as I've always done, but then having just as many of my elves killed in return.

So until the Errata is released, which may not change anything much, elves have been hit pretty hard. I think it will just come down to taking larger units that can withstand the casualties, while killing off the opponent faster than they are killing you.

Between the three Elven armies, there exists exactly ONE infantry unit capable of having a 4+ armor save: DE Repeater Crossbowmen. No Elf unit can withstand the kind of casualties that the new rules are going to heap upon them (and no DE player is going to buy that many boxes of Warriors, either). The basic DE starategy will still be small, hard units, including a Dragon and 1-2 Hydras. The sheer volume of attacks (with Thunderstomp being added and the removal of Outnumber) make this tactic viable, if not preferable.

Except that shooting and warmachines have gotten a big boost as well, and magic (if more risky) can pay off big against a limited number of high-point targets.

No, the elves are strong second tier now. Empire (strong shooting and cheap infantry), Skaven (much the same, with even cheaper infantry), and O&G (Hordes of cheap infantry and WAAAGH move 1/game) are top tier now.

At least, in my humble opinion anyway.

Vulcan: Orcs and Goblins are not, and will not until Animosity is changed, top tier. Were it not for that rule, they would handily be high up there. As it stands now, you can't make use of Cavalry reliably without risking D6 casualties in it (either due to an attached BOrc or a 1 during a Waaagh!). Standard infantry, barring those with attached BOrcs, are similarly limited: It doesn't matter how many D6 a unit can get (Four, BTW ) for its charge if the first dice comes up a 1 and thus now the unit's stuck stationary (and possibly even taking casualties).

How are DE repeater bowmen going to be a 4+?

If i remember right they will be a 5+ with 6+ ward for the parry when using HW and shields.

So chaos warriors catch the shaft where as saurus warriors stay superior for half the cost. For that matter don't all calvary eat crap unless you can field 2 ranks or more. Odd new rule very odd.

ShivanAngel wrote:How are DE repeater bowmen going to be a 4+?

If i remember right they will be a 5+ with 6+ ward for the parry when using HW and shields.

Good catch, my bad. So there you have it: three whole armies with T3 5+ save (at best) troops, and too expensive to field in anything big enough to last.


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omgmadmax wrote:So chaos warriors catch the shaft where as saurus warriors stay superior for half the cost. For that matter don't all calvary eat crap unless you can field 2 ranks or more. Odd new rule very odd.

Tzeentch Warriors with HW/S are awesome for staying power (3+/5+), and not too shabby for dishing out punishment. Give them the Banner of Rage and let the enemy deal with 20 S4r attacks and shells they'll have a hard time cracking.

Cavalry, on the other hand, got the shaft: Minimum 10 models to disrupt, and the loss of even one means you have four guys taking up space. Most heavy cavalry is too expensive to do this, and fast cavalry is too light to risk it. I'm highly annoyed that 10 Goblins can break ranks but 5 Chaos Knights can't.

ShivanAngel wrote:How are DE repeater bowmen going to be a 4+?

If i remember right they will be a 5+ with 6+ ward for the parry when using HW and shields.

My mistake.

You are correct; but my point stands in that they are the toughest DE infantry with that ward save.

EDIT: And I agree with you, Manfried. Cavalry is now the suckage. Almost no point in bothering with them anymore. 8E is Infantryhammer; cavalry need not apply.

Cavalry kicks the hell out of Ogres, and ogres are the new cavalry. They are worth it.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Tzeentch Warriors with HW/S are awesome for staying power (3+/5+), and not too shabby for dishing out punishment. Give them the Banner of Rage and let the enemy deal with 20 S4r attacks and shells they'll have a hard time cracking.

Remember that frenzied troops can't use the parry rule, so it's just a lame 3/6+ but an extra attak from the front rank. I wonder how tizz warriors are working out for people - played a WoC dude who is swapping in 20 of them and mangled the hell out of his unit with my WoT troopers. He was pretty disappointed in his 370 point (+ points for the terror banner) investment. But then warriors vs warriors is a lot of nobody dying in combat as gateways and monsters go to work.

- Salvage

Ragnar4 wrote:Cavalry kicks the hell out of Ogres, and ogres are the new cavalry. They are worth it.

Cavalry will beat Ogres because Ogres can't/won't have large enough units to benefit from steadfast for very long. Aside form the Ogre Kingdom army, there aren't enough ogre-sized units out there to make cavalry worth taking as a counter ogres.

Every army will have at least one unit of ogres, because ogres kick the crap out of infantry. Absolutely steamroll them. Most armies are going to have 2 or 3 at 6 strong I'd imagine.

That's why cavalry will be manditory for armies, to counter the ogres that will whip the infantry.

Guaranteed, armies that don't have ogre bases, or who's ogres are far too expensive will weep, and rue the day they chose the army. Meanwhile, just about anyone with access to trolls will laugh at you and believe they are actually good players.

O&G, most likely, won't be wielding Trolls. Yeah, they can get something like 18 S5 attacks with six of them. The catch is that's at least 240pts down the drain, and against T4 units only about four-to-five wounds (depending on if they have parry or not).

Chaos is slightly better off with its "Trolls" as they can at least get some buffs before combat like "+1 Strength" or "+1 attack", or even "4+ Ward" which means a good save against Fire Magic / Attacks. Dragon Ogres will still be the predominant choice though for better saves and improved killy-ness (+1 WS and possibly S7).

Empire, Dark Elves, High Elves, Vampire Counts, and Bretonnians, to my understanding, are all lacking in Troll-type units.

Wood Elves have Treekin. Slower than Dragon Ogres movement wise, barely better initiative, just as killy naked (no upgrades) and slightly more durable (barring fire magic). Think they're about on par or cheaper for points (don't have the Wood Elf book on me). Not exactly bad unit, but still suffer from difficulty inflicting large amounts of wounds.

Tomb King Ushabti are just as fast as Treekin, much less durable, can be revived (sorta), and are slightly more killy (now having S6, and thus being 2's to wound most units and only parry for infantry outside full plate / Chaos / Gromril Armor). To my understanding, expensive for cost.

Rat Ogres are slightly faster (M6, but more impressively I4!) and A4 (essentially), but suffer from the same problem of Trolls in that they're WS3 S5.

Lastly, assuming I missed none, Kroxigors. They... are bleh. WS3, ASL, S6 after GW's, three attacks apiece. They're slightly more durable than most non-Ogre Ogres and more likely to stick with Cold Blooded, but that's all they have going for them.

Personally, with all the above, I can't see too many lists fielding six-big units. They're 300-400 point sinks that require charging in combination with another unit, or multiple buffs / debuffs which in turn further increase their cost (plus I think a lot of the armies that can use them have minimal access to said buff spells).