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So I play Tyranids and Chaos Marines, mostly, and back in 4th edition I would field my expensive-but-worth-it MC's (Tyrants, Carnifexes, Daemon Princes, etc) confident that they could earn their points back nine times out of ten.

The problem comes when I field these same units in the current 5th edition games, they almost never seem to make any real impact and I can't help but think of what I could have have got for the same points elsewhere. For instance in three recent games I have had the following: A Nurgle Daemon prince with Warptime assaulting 2 Thunderwolves inflicting zero wounds (Damned storm shields!) and then being trashed by return frost blade attacks - Old One Eye (I know, not great, but I like it) getting dismantled by charging blood claws in a single turn, even with a Venomthrope's defense bonuses, and finally a Hive Tyrant attempting to engage a Blood Angels assault unit, killing only 2 and then again being ripped apart by return hits, I had invested in 2 Guard but they were dead but this point to missiles and lascannons.

Not to mention any time I fight the Imperial Guard and outflanking Vendettas filled with plasma Veterans chew through any of my MC's like they were made of tinfoil and paper.

Essentally it seems I can almost never get value from my MC's anymore, I don't know if I'm just using them badly, but they just seem to lack resilience somehow despite the impressive looking statlines and distraction attempts to prevent them getting mauled. Is it just me or does anyone else feel the once great monsters have lost their lustre? Or do they just need to be used in a different way than before that I'm just not seeing?

I understand. It's just a result of more anti-MC stuff. People are really learning how to handle them more. The trygon is a counter-example though. 6 wounds deep-striking is pretty bad for your opponent. A daemon prince is another good example. A flying psyker that can lash you twice per turn and destroy you in Assault is also not good for your opponent.

Maybe you're just not playing them right. A single trygon prime can be devastating to the entire game, as can a Hive Tyrant or greater daemon.

I still love them dearly - they're probably the single most fun thing to play with short of maybe possibly Pie Plate Ordinance.

Biggest thing I've noticed though is that MC's that are slow tend to get shot to pieces. My Demon Princes with wings can always get to where I want them and have dramatic effects on the game. My friend's Tyranids though are just soooooo damn slow.

God help the army that doesn't respect plasma/MC-Killing-Weaponry though. Those things pound face against the unprepared.

Monstrous creature really need to start breaking through past toughness 6. With as many Str 8 and Str 10 weapons as there are flying around today's metagame it's sort of vexing to see something fifteen times bigger than the attacking model's HOUSE being wounded on 2+ because he's got a fancy future space-gun in his hand.

SumYungGui wrote:Monstrous creature really need to start breaking through past toughness 6. With as many Str 8 and Str 10 weapons as there are flying around today's metagame it's sort of vexing to see something fifteen times bigger than the attacking model's HOUSE being wounded on 2+ because he's got a fancy future space-gun in his hand.

Eh....But then it gets impossible to destroy them in CC, which can't be tolerated. Maybe they just need more wounds.

6 wounds at toughness 6 is enough on monstrous creatures.

nids do monstrous creatures right. Tervigons giving FNP to trigons / carnifexes makes them disgustingly durable. You need to hit them with lascannons to wound, at the very least... because they get FNP vs missile launchers. and honestly, lascannons are so expensive, nobody really packs that many of them. Hitting them with plasma / melta is an option, but realistically, no army can put out enough plasma/melta in a single round to kill ALL the monstrous creatures a nid player can bring to bear without being vulnerable to counter charge next turn.

Daemon princes are a LOT more fragile, and are too easy to kill IMO. princes need to be T6 instead of T5, and then they'd be balanced. T7 on nurgle princes. 4 wounds on a prince is fine, because with wings and their invulnerable save, they will still usually get to where they are going. I bring down princes with bolter fire often, which isn't right. They should be damn near immune to bolter fire.

I've noticed that the current trend in 5th edition seems to be 'Everything must have a chance of damaging everything else in some way', hence no creature having toughness above 6 and all vehicles taking rear armour hits in close combat, giving even a tactical Marine squad with Krak grenades a reasonable chance of stuffing up a Leman Russ head on.

At the moment it's just a bit galling as a nid player to take a look back at the Eldar Wraithlord and see how much tougher, stronger, faster and more shooty it is than the current Carnifex, all for a lot less points (Though I have a suspicion it will be dropped to toughness 6 in a revised book).

Part of the problem seems to be that it is assumed the high-ish toughness and multiple wounds is enough to protect the MC's, so they all have relatively poor saves. What this amounts to is once someone figures out how to overcome the toughness (Rapid fire plasma, high strength power weapons, etc) they drop like flies. The same isn't true of smaller equivalents, a bunch of storm shield equipped Terminators could walk through a torrent of fire that would leave a Carnifex as a charred heap of sludge, and they'd do more damage on the subsequent assault!

GMR wrote:I've noticed that the current trend in 5th edition seems to be 'Everything must have a chance of damaging everything else in some way', hence no creature having toughness above 6 and all vehicles taking rear armour hits in close combat, giving even a tactical Marine squad with Krak grenades a reasonable chance of stuffing up a Leman Russ head on.

At the moment it's just a bit galling as a nid player to take a look back at the Eldar Wraithlord and see how much tougher, stronger, faster and more shooty it is than the current Carnifex, all for a lot less points (Though I have a suspicion it will be dropped to toughness 6 in a revised book).

Part of the problem seems to be that it is assumed the high-ish toughness and multiple wounds is enough to protect the MC's, so they all have relatively poor saves. What this amounts to is once someone figures out how to overcome the toughness (Rapid fire plasma, high strength power weapons, etc) they drop like flies. The same isn't true of smaller equivalents, a bunch of storm shield equipped Terminators could walk through a torrent of fire that would leave a Carnifex as a charred heap of sludge, and they'd do more damage on the subsequent assault!

Most likely. Toughness 8 is insane. I believe that's unwoundable in most respects.

And to someone else...Yes, I agree that princes should be toughness 6 Base. They not only wear power armour, but they're incredibly large, have daemonic skin (which usually gives an invulnerable save) and are awesome. Most MC's have toughness 6, just for being so large.

I believe a prince is roughly 30 feet tall,iirc. Which means, he's gonna be hard to take down with anything but the strongest stuff (like plasma), which WOULD be toughness 8. (A 5+ to wound with plasma seems about right)

I honestly think he deserves a 2+ armor save also (or the ability to take a 2+). That 3+ has killed me too many times to count, and his invul is trash.

The problem with many of the tyranid MCs are they have T6 & a 3+ save. Krak missiles or better wound on a 2+. There are some good ones but they are not up to what they used to be.

A 2+ armour save is still vulnerable to plasma guns, melta guns and lascannons though, though obviously it helps a lot against the mid-range heavy weapons.

To me the problem isn't the MCs being T6 Sv3 so much as certain armies (I'm looking at you, IG) having access to huge amounts of very cheap but effective portable heavy weapons.

In my 1,000 point Tyrnid list I have one MC. In a 2,000 point list I would probably have three or four. A 2,000 point Guard list I saw today had something like 18 plasma and melta guns, nearly all of them mounted in transports.

Of course as a Tyranid player you would try to use combined arms against such an army. Get your MCs and Zoes into the vehicles early on, and use cheapo Gaunts and Gargoyles to swamp the dismounted infantry.

Funny, in a thousand points, I usually try to cram 2 in there ( Tyrant and Trygon, usually) and then spam troops for he rest of the points. Works for me!
In a 2000 point list, I usually use three trygon primes and several maxed units of hormaguants and gargoyles (why no love for these guys?). I'm a bad nids player, I guess.

I think it also has to do with the game being so mech heavy now. Everyone knows to bring plenty of anti tank if your not doing transport spam so dealing with a few MCs is far easier then dealing with 8 rhinoes.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Most likely. Toughness 8 is insane. I believe that's unwoundable in most respects.

Is that really a bad thing? Something that big and armored really SHOULD be able to completely shrug off weapons that have comparatively low strength. Toughness 6 can ignore Str 1 and 2 weapons. When is the last time you've even fired a weapon with Str 1 or 2? And with the ludicrous amount of melta-this power-that and missile those over there, what's wrong with them getting wounded by Str8 weapons on something other than a 2+ which is what you get at Toughness 6? That is why monstrous creature are losing their luster real quick. All you have to do is hit, and you're practically guaranteed a wound at 2+.

SumYungGui wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Most likely. Toughness 8 is insane. I believe that's unwoundable in most respects.

Is that really a bad thing? Something that big and armored really SHOULD be able to completely shrug off weapons that have comparatively low strength.

I agree. Monstrous Creatures should be exactly that; Monstrous. One MC should be able to shrug off all but the most powerful shots and rip stuff apart up close.

Spitballing: Maybe they should raise T back to 8 on everything, but make it a rule where if you roll a 6 to wound, its a wound (A lucky blow or such). This would make MC's monstrous, but still have a chance to be killed.

As a guard player, I fear MC's more than vehicles, simply because of the number of wounds they have. BUT they do have to come in supported these days...a lone MC rampaging around is not advisable, but having them run around besides a rhino full of CSMs, or beside a huge pack of hormogaunts or outflanking stealers, is a different story....

Maybe the issue here is you are still in the 4th ed mindset that they have to earn their points back. In 5th ed, with so many objective based missions, these MCs do not need to earn their points back by killing an equivalent or greater number of enemies, but by contributing to the "greater good" (to quote the tau) of winning the game. Even if they kill nothing, but tie up the enemy's attention so much so you are able to fulfill the mission, or simply contesting an enemy objective, then they have earned their keep....

SM player here and I envy MC's. They destroy vehicles, and normal squads, can not be instagibbed and don't lose any offensive capabilities until they're dead.

Most can be instant deathed, just not always through S>=2T. Only Daemons have the built in Eternal Warrior by default...

MCs defintely have their place, and I normally use my cheap as chips Khorne DP with wings to take out high priority targets - if he can kill a troops choice of say, sisters or marines while causing less of that fire to fall on my fragile Rhinos, all the better. More than done his job there!

Oh boy, the lack of Eternal Warrior on any of the Tyranids now can be a real kick in the face. A minor example is when I lost a Carnifex in a single close combat round to Njal, before I even got to swing.

A major example is where Skulltaker on a Juggernaut backed up by some Bloodcrushers creamed 2 Trygons and a Hive Tyrant with 2 Tyrant Guard in a single game. I really badly underestimated his "ID on a 4+" skill. Ouch.

Yeah, looking through my CSM Dex right now, i see that some of the instant death stuff is truly ridiculous. Chaos Lord with mark of Slaneesh and Blissgiver.
D6+4 INSTANT KILLS PER TURN! At I5 nonetheless!

Looking at this makes me feel sorry for 'Nid players.
It also makes me glad that DPs have Eternal Warrior.

BTW: Anyone else notice that Greater Demons ARENT Eternal Warrior?

IME, Tyranid MC's require a lot of planning and finesse to get value from.

I never leave home without Venomthropes. Sometimes, it'll be the only way to give your MC's cover.

A lot depends on whether you're going first or second also. If you get first turn, you can put Trygons out front. With move through cover and fleet, your opponent will almost always have to deal with them first.

When going second, I will nearly always reserve a Trygon. Tyrants, Tervigons, and Carnifex's will get cover with proper layering of hive guard and gargoyles.

Overall, I still feel they are the anchor of the Tyranid army but you have to play them a lot more carefully than some are used to. Mutual support is key, never letting them receive instakill attacks or leaving cover against shooting lists. IMO, taking fast infantry is also key.

I play with 25 gargoyles with adrenal glands and toxins. My opponent can no choose to shoot the gargoyles that will eat them in t2 or ignore them and shoot the MC's. 25 gargoyles with furious charge, toxin, and FnP will eat a lot of infantry and pop a lot of tanks.

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Yeah, looking through my CSM Dex right now, i see that some of the instant death stuff is truly ridiculous. Chaos Lord with mark of Slaneesh and Blissgiver.
D6+4 INSTANT KILLS PER TURN! At I5 nonetheless!

Looking at this makes me feel sorry for 'Nid players.
It also makes me glad that DPs have Eternal Warrior.

BTW: Anyone else notice that Greater Demons ARENT Eternal Warrior?

all demons are.

EagleArk wrote:

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Yeah, looking through my CSM Dex right now, i see that some of the instant death stuff is truly ridiculous. Chaos Lord with mark of Slaneesh and Blissgiver.
D6+4 INSTANT KILLS PER TURN! At I5 nonetheless!

Looking at this makes me feel sorry for 'Nid players.
It also makes me glad that DPs have Eternal Warrior.

BTW: Anyone else notice that Greater Demons ARENT Eternal Warrior?

all demons are.

Not the CSM one. Popped one with my sorc force weapon thanks to a lucky six/failed invul.

A pretty typical GW course of rule development

1. Invent multi-wound creatures.
2. Realise they easily can be killed by instant death.
3. Give them very high toughness so they can't be killed by instant death.
4. Invent special weapons which cause instant death anyway (e.g. Boneswords).
5. Realise this makes monstrous creatures too vulnerable.
6. Invent a rule (FNP) to save from instant death.

Is there a weapon which ignores FNP?

Every weapon ignores FNP

I hate it how my beautiful little carnifexes are utter F*&$*ng S#$T.

I think Blissgiver (CSM DW) does. Don't have codex hand atm to check though.

Kilkrazy wrote:6. Invent a rule (FNP) to save from instant death.

Is there a weapon which ignores FNP?

I'm guessing you meant "Eternal Warrior" here.

Jaws of the World Wolf (as well as old DH force weapons) ignore Eternal Warrior.

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Yeah, looking through my CSM Dex right now, i see that some of the instant death stuff is truly ridiculous. Chaos Lord with mark of Slaneesh and Blissgiver.
D6+4 INSTANT KILLS PER TURN! At I5 nonetheless!

Looking at this makes me feel sorry for 'Nid players.
It also makes me glad that DPs have Eternal Warrior.

BTW: Anyone else notice that Greater Demons ARENT Eternal Warrior?

All deamon from the Chaos Deamon codex have the 'Deamon' special rule, which make their save invulnerable and grant them Eternal Warrior.

Tarkand wrote:

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Yeah, looking through my CSM Dex right now, i see that some of the instant death stuff is truly ridiculous. Chaos Lord with mark of Slaneesh and Blissgiver.
D6+4 INSTANT KILLS PER TURN! At I5 nonetheless!

Looking at this makes me feel sorry for 'Nid players.
It also makes me glad that DPs have Eternal Warrior.

BTW: Anyone else notice that Greater Demons ARENT Eternal Warrior?

All deamon from the Chaos Deamon codex have the 'Deamon' special rule, which make their save invulnerable and grant them Eternal Warrior.

The unit "Greater Daemon" isn't in Codex: Daemons; it's the CSM "generic" version.

Blissgiver is pretty good. In fact, most of the slaaneshi stuff is pretty good. Too bad I hate slaanesh so much..

And when you think of Slaneesh you think of demons.

When you think of 40k demons you think of soulgrinders.

When you think of soulgrinders you think of SOUL GRINDERS WITH TOUNGE (SLANEESHI SOULGRINDERS!) then bad things appear in your head.