Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I'm trying to run a hard hitting BT army

HQ:
Master of Sanctity + 5 Initiates with Furious Charge and Rhino with smoke - 261
Emps Champ Accept any challenge - 140 pts

Elites:
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta) Drop Pod- 145
Sword Brethren Assault Termies x 5 all Lightning Claws, Furious Charge, Land Raider Crusader with smoke- 483

Troops:
6 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 174
6 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 174

Fast Attack
5 Assault Initiates with power fist and storm shield - 128

Total is 1505

This list is kind of built with an idea of trying to defeat a tough space wolf army heavy with missile launcher long fang squads. The army has tons of rhazorbacks thus the need for power fists. That being said is accept any challenge worth it or should i surprise him with abhor the witch as he often uses many rune priests.

Please go at it, also alternative lists are very welcome, the dread is mainly to destroy as many vehicles as it can while it survives as well as provide an alternative thing to shoot at then the crusader or the 3 rhinos as they hopefully pop smoke

I'm all for accept any challenge still, despite the heavy rune priests you must be running into. You'll mulch him in close combat with the vow as is. But if it's just too my psychic... well you gotta do what you got to do.

I think 12 scoring models might be a bit low but that's my opinion. If he focuses on your crusader squads you'll never hold an objective. How have the assault marines been doing? If they are rocking socks against the longfangs keep em. But if you're unsure perhaps drop them for more troops.

I've always liked Marshals over Chaplains for Black Templar. However an interesting idea could be to keep the MOS with the squad he's in and take Abhor. Since you have the chaplain you still have reroll to hits in close combat and you get the benefit of a (crappyish) psychic hood. It's no psychic hood but it's still not bad.

For what it seems like you're doing, I might drop the command squad and give the chaplain a jump pack, and run him with the assault marines (and bulk up the squad).

Like TakamineG said, you might have trouble holding objectives with so few scoring guys.

And BT Chaplains are amazing, but remember you don't need to staple them to your lists unless you're running the BT foot hordes.

Ok, so I have an alternative list, which is a little more tricky but could pay off in a big way.

HQ:
Master of Sanctity + 7 Initiates with Furious Charge and Rhino with smoke - 293
Emps Champ Accept any challenge - 140 pts

Troops:
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206

Heavy Support:
Vindicator with Smoke - 128
Vindicator with Smoke - 128

Total: 1513

This army focuses on using the rhino's and crusaders as screens for the vindicators so that I can dish out massive fire power as i move forward, 5 rhino's also gives me a nice chance to get a good number of initiates right into combat, mainly using the rhinos as bunker rhinos so i can get in close, melta out of the rhinos and then shelter the crusaders in them until next turn when i can disembark and effectively assault them, all the while the vindicators are placing strength 10 ap 2 ordnance large blast templates on his army. Ideally i can go first and pop smoke on everything.

That looks pretty good imho. I feel I should warn you though, other armies can do the "Rhino Rush" a lot better than us for about the same price if not cheaper.

That said, your list is not bad by any means, but if meching up in rhinos really feels like your play-style, then you should try proxying Wolves or one of those armies.

glad to see you took my advice last night, I feel that that's a well balanced list to take out those spess wolves. Also i wouldn't plan on your rhinos being able to make it to Johns gunline. Hopefully you go first so you can run those rhinos up pop smoke and bunker for a turn and then next turn disembark your squads and move those rhinos up to absorb shots and block LOS from long fangs this way he has to make choices on what to shoot. (rhinos, marines, or vindicators) either way your gonna kill him with templates or CC its his choice. (hopefully)

BTW random question, space wolf long fangs, if they shoot at different targets (which they probably will) doesn't the unit have to declare all of their targets first?

So for the more experienced crusaders out there I do have a serious question. The second list I put together may be mechanized and I know that other marine armies like Blood Angels and Space Wolves can pull off a rhino rush much better than templars, it just serves the purpose of screening the vindicators and will hopefully work well in this specific battle against a long fang heavy army.

However, my question is, how do I build and run a BT marine horde list. I have little idea how to and what HQ choices should be used either. I know righteous zeal allows them to move quite quickly across the field. Does anyone have an example list that they could put up and explain to me. I love my Templars and in the future would like to crusade right and proper way. Also what exactly are minor psychic powers and how does it affect abhor the witch?

Depending on what you want, a full horde generally includes 2 or more "20 man" crusader squads. So basically take the max squad size, put a fist and a meltagun in it, and give them an HQ officer.

Now, in my experience, you can go for fast hordes by dropping a couple Masters of Sanctity into the list, accompanied by 3 cenobyte servitors each. This will give you a couple gigantic squads that move 6", run D6", zeal (enemy turn) D6+3", move 6", and then assault 6".

So in essence your horde can cover up to 25" by their next assault phase, and then assault 6". Also remember that your Chaplains make your squads Fearless, so they automatically zeal (without testing), and may zeal towards any enemy unit.

An alternative to the chaplains, however (since they're really expensive to field), is fielding weaker officers (such as Techmarines) or cheaper officers (chaplains w/o cenobytes), and fielding more crusaders. I've had some reasonably good experiences fielding three 20 man squads, each with an officer. This gives you the bonus of being able to overwhelm elite CC armies (like chaos daemons), and being able to weather sustained enemy fire by having more units.

Lastly you still want to have some ranged firepower, so most horde lists run with a couple predators (AC/Las or Tri-las) or a couple PotMS Vindicators. These are good since they don't have to take those stupid Target Priority tests that our infantry do. (see the BT FAQ).

Minor psychic powers don't exist in 5th edition anymore, just ignore that reference. Abhor the witch can be nice since it gets you closer faster, but I'd never take it over Accept Any Challenge (which is absolutely godly with hordes).

Oh and as far as tactics, allocate wounds to the neophytes, except for AP4 shots, which I generally drop 1 on a neophyte (to guarantee zeal), and the rest on initiates. Don't be afraid to lose most of the neophytes also; that's what they're there for. 10 charging space marines is still pretty deadly to most basic infantry.

EDIT: I can put together an example list and post it... it'll be up later.

Honestly, at this points limit, you are better off with a Marshal with 2 LC's, Termi Honors, and if points allow, a Halo. If you are running him with a command squad taking the Halo isn't necessarily required, since him and the squad will mulch just about everything in close combat when they charge which usually doesn't require him to need an invulnerable save. The Marshal is also good because he makes your other units LD10 which is needed far more than what a MoS can give you at 1500pts. I'm not a fan that all your units are the same. I'd have at least one unit that has PF, Meltagun, and all bolters. That way you can play combined arms with that unit and a choppy one. I'd also drop one Initiate out of every crusader unit and take a neophyte to take advantage of wound allocation and zeal if needed. I'm not a fan of vindicators at all so YMMV with them. Personally, I'd rather go with 2 destructors with LC sponsons. Ultimately, I'm not sure you need the command squad in the list, but if you really like it...go for it.

Ichi wrote:Ok, so I have an alternative list, which is a little more tricky but could pay off in a big way.

HQ:
Master of Sanctity + 7 Initiates with Furious Charge and Rhino with smoke - 293
Emps Champ Accept any challenge - 140 pts

Troops:
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206
Crusader Squad 8 Initiates, Power Fist, Meltagun, Rhino with smoke - 206

Heavy Support:
Vindicator with Smoke - 128
Vindicator with Smoke - 128

Total: 1513

This army focuses on using the rhino's and crusaders as screens for the vindicators so that I can dish out massive fire power as i move forward, 5 rhino's also gives me a nice chance to get a good number of initiates right into combat, mainly using the rhinos as bunker rhinos so i can get in close, melta out of the rhinos and then shelter the crusaders in them until next turn when i can disembark and effectively assault them, all the while the vindicators are placing strength 10 ap 2 ordnance large blast templates on his army. Ideally i can go first and pop smoke on everything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you plan on making a hordes style Templars army, the first character you take is Grimaldus. For what he does he's a steal. Otherwise, you can take 2 Reclusiarchs with Cenobyte servitors and join them to two large squads of Crusaders. Mix and match the weapons on some of the neophytes and crusaders for wound allocation goodness. To suppliment the hordes, take Destructor preds with LC sponsons and/or MM/ HF speeders. A Venerable dreadnought with Tankhunters, EA, Smoke, ML, Ass Cannon is cheap and extremely versatile as well. The horde style list doesn't work that well anymore though, so I'll caution you on the success of it.

So one more question, why doesn't the horde list work as well anymore, it frankly sounds incredibly potent and I've heard stories of how well it worked in 4th edition sometimes. I mostly play for fun with well known friends at the FLGS so I'd play the horde list for fun. I have no intention of running it against the Space Wolf list I'm playing against because he specifically packs his long fangs with 4 missile launchers and I have no intention of trying to run a horde of marines against that many frag rounds per turn, it wouldn't leave me well. I do want to run the horde list when I play against my friends Necrons as it seems like it would work to great results. Frankly in my experience I have no trouble wrecking him in assault by any means as he always runs gunline wolves but I want the vindicators for the ability to wreck hundreds of points in a turn. I may return to the marshal just because I plan on bunkering and disembarking so I'm going to need zeal after that point. I would greatly like a horde list and a quick explanation later because I still feel like it could work really well given a good situation.

Horde still works, and is still competitive. It's one of the few remaining competitive footslogging options, especially for marines.

Well, at least that's what I've been told. I don't play the tourney circuit.

So one more question, why doesn't the horde list work as well anymore, it frankly sounds incredibly potent and I've heard stories of how well it worked in 4th edition sometimes. I mostly play for fun with well known friends at the FLGS so I'd play the horde list for fun. I have no intention of running it against the Space Wolf list I'm playing against because he specifically packs his long fangs with 4 missile launchers and I have no intention of trying to run a horde of marines against that many frag rounds per turn, it wouldn't leave me well. I do want to run the horde list when I play against my friends Necrons as it seems like it would work to great results. Frankly in my experience I have no trouble wrecking him in assault by any means as he always runs gunline wolves but I want the vindicators for the ability to wreck hundreds of points in a turn. I may return to the marshal just because I plan on bunkering and disembarking so I'm going to need zeal after that point. I would greatly like a horde list and a quick explanation later because I still feel like it could work really well given a good situation.

The problem with the BT horde list is that any army with massed fire will take your army apart a piece at a time. You also don't have much in the way of ranged support. Any smart player will see how to dismantle a list like this and limit your options. You also have to invest at a minimum 390pts in characters to make it work. This makes it harder for you to get enough bodies to make it work at a points level less than 2000pts. Even at 2k points, it's still not all that great because other armies can up gun their army as well.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of vindicators since one weapon destroyed makes them worthless. They also can only move 6" a turn to shoot which makes it hard to catch up with your mobile units. The biggest thing with Templars to remember is that you will be (ideally) doing most of the fighting on your opponents end, but to cover enough of the board, I'd recommend Predators. But it's a preference thing.

Horde still works, and is still competitive. It's one of the few remaining competitive footslogging options, especially for marines.

Well, at least that's what I've been told. I don't play the tourney circuit.

BT Horde doesn't work on a tournament level. I play BT on a tournament level. Mechanized is really the only way they remain competitive. However, with the advent of the BA codex, BT are slowly being more eclipsed as time goes by. If you are interested in a foot list I can post one later today when I have more time to respond.

Ok, so recap. I had the rematch today and I ran the mechanized list. I had the unfortunate luck of getting dawn of war and capture and control so sadly my vindicators came in rather piece meal. What really won me the game was a mad last 2 turns rush by 2 squads to contest their objective. What really saved me here was the MOS giving fearless so that I zealed great and while the HQ squad was destroyed, the second squad behind it had lucky zeal rolling and managed to assault, win assault and consolidate onto their objective to contest it, all of this with 3 squad members left. This contestation occurred on the bottom of the 6th turn and the die roll for another turn ended the game.

Basically it would have been a very different game had I been able to drop all my army on the table in the beginning with a different deployment, however I am very satisfied with the mad dash for victory. And yeh I would like the infantry list if you have one to put up anyone.

Here is a foot list:

EC with Accept
Grimaldus
Marshal with 2 LC's, Termie Honors, Telly Homer

2 X 20 man crusader squads with Meltagun, PF, Frags, 5 initiates with shotguns, 5 with BP/CCW.

1 X15 man crusader squad with Meltagun, PF, Frags, 3 initiates with BP/CCW, 2 with shotguns

2 X 5 man terminator squads with Ass cannons, CF, Tank Hunters.

Venerable Dread with Ass cannon, ML, Tank Hunters

Total: 2000pts.

This list is pretty straight forward. Attach Grimaldus to one 20 man squad. Join the marshal to the other 20 man squad, the EC gets the 15 man squad. Keep the termie squads either on the table or off depending on the mission and opponent. Dread moves up the center with near grimaldus's squad. If you are deploying your entire army, keep at least one model from every unit within 6" of Grimaldus. He can make your whole army fearless. Marshall is there for chop and to give Rites/ Homer to your terminators if they DS, or need to move away from the large block of troops. This is a pretty basic foot list that I have run with moderate success. The key is using Grimaldus's abilities to their fullest and popping his relic at the right time. However, any fast moving mech army will give it fits. That is somewhat mitigated with the Tank Hunting units. Certain IG builds will crush it. Again, the BT foot army just doesn't stack up anymore. I also have used a different foot list using Helbrect, but it's more for fun than anything else.