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I don't know its just that the Tyrant seems to be too OP. I charged my scorpions into his guants and his tyrant charged me(next phase) . Then his lashwhips made me initiative one. Then he cast a power that made all of my guys within 24" WS and BS 1, even my Dire Avengers. Needless to say those units were slaughtered. Is it just me or is this kind of overpowered. BTW I play BA, Eldar, and Chaos so how should I counter it.

If your eldar blow it to bits with prism cannon fire / massed war walker scatter laser fire / dark reapers ... etc etc

Just follow the old adage ... SHOOT THE ASSAULT STUFF... ASSAULT THE SHOOTIE STUFF

Its an old one , but dam it still holds good

the tyrant + tyrant guard is OP, because its always in cover, which is [MOD EDIT - that really isn't the adjective you're looking for].

the tyrant by himself is UP, because he costs a crapton of points and is easy to put down with krak missiles.

Even with tyrant guard the previous tactic still holds true, he is dangerous and so gets a huge SHOOT ME FIRST on his head

Addicted to Bleach wrote:I don't know its just that the Tyrant seems to be too OP. I charged my scorpions into his guants and his tyrant charged me(next phase) . Then his lashwhips made me initiative one. Then he cast a power that made all of my guys within 24" WS and BS 1, even my Dire Avengers. Needless to say those units were slaughtered. Is it just me or is this kind of overpowered. BTW I play BA, Eldar, and Chaos so how should I counter it.

That's why it's always a good idea to understand your opponent's army before the game. The Tyrant is not overpowered; you were simply unprepared.

Not to mention your tactical error of leaving the scorpions unsupported and in a position to be counterassaulted by the tyrant, it seems foolish to just assume that your slightly-better-than-average assault troops (scorpions) would be able to hack through his army by themselves. You left them in a bad position and they got munched.

As for dealing with it, with Eldar it'd be the same as dealing with any other monstrous creature. Doom it, guide one of your shooty units and blast it off the face of the table (fire prisms pouring shots into it might also do the trick, but I'd prefer massed firepower - more potential for wounds). BA have tons of ways to kill it; it's BA after all. Chaos has oblits, termies (combi-plasma, powerfists, etc) - heck, I've killed a Tyrant and 3 Guard with a single Berzerker squad led by Kharn on the charge, but that was more a fluke than anything.

Also, Tyranids have a big disadvantage in multiple assaults. If you can, try charging both the Tyrant and some Gaunts, aiming to kill as many Gaunts as possible. If you win combat, you'll win by lots and force the Tyrant to take a pile of wounds from No Retreat!.

guard aren't monstrous creatures, and unless the nid player is brain dead, they are in cover.

In regards to the original post I have to say that as a nid player I have the opposite problem: Tyrants die way too quickly against anyone who has even the faintest idea they'll be fighting one (Relentless missile-wielding Long Fangs anyone?).

I have to ask though, what was the power that caused 24 inch BS & WS 1 on all your guys? There is a power called Paroxysm that causes WS & BS 1 but it only has 12 inch range and only affects one unit, so you might want to check that.

Honersstodnt wrote:guard aren't monstrous creatures, and unless the nid player is brain dead, they are in cover.

Ah, I thought you were saying that the presence of Tyrant Guard automatically gave the Tyrant a cover save. My confusion, sorry.

Also remember that the rules for cover and monstrous creatures are much like vehicles. That is, at least half the model has to be actually blocked to grant the cover save. Simply being in a piece of area terrain is no longer enough to grant a cover save. (page 51 of the little rule book)

It's tough 6 with a 3+ save (wings) or a 2+ save (extra armor) Either way a few missiles / lascannons or whatever the eldar equivilent is will bring it down quickly. Also without wings it should be easy to avoid.

TG are not monstrous creatures, so in order for the UNIT to gain a cover save you can simply place 1 or 2 TG in cover, and the whole unit then has a 4+.

In other words those termagaunts / stealers / gargoyles work wonders....

yea, the 2+ save tyrant with tyrant guard is a pain in the arse to deal with by shooting, because if you fire krak missiles at it he'll just take his tyrant's 2+ save, and if you fire lascannons he'll just take a 4+ cover save on an expendable tyrant guard model. More frustrating now that you can't single him out in hand to hand either... tyrants with guard are a pain in the ass to deal with.

Wow...only one post mentioned this...

There is no such psychic power that the OP described. The best spell the tyrant has is called paroxysm and it is a psychic shooting attack that hits ONE unit within 12". That unit has WS 1 (always hits on 5's, hit on 3's) and BS 1 (shoots and hits only on 6's) until the following Tyranid player's turn.

As for the Tyrant being Overpowered...no. He costs at least 170 points and that's if you take him with no upgrades or guard (pointless). Most Tyrants end up being closer to 300-400 points.

Was about to echo Night Lords' sentiment about the psychic power, but he beat me to it. Whether your buddy knew it or not he was cheating with that power.

A Tyrant is a pain in the ass to kill, no question. However, if you shoot it with enough plasma and melta you can drop it. Fire Dragons will erase one from existence. Also, Lash Whips don't work against Banshee Masks, according to the new Tyranid FAQ. If you charged him with a fortuned squad of Howling Banshees, you might be able to kill him too.

For the point costs of two Fire Prisms, this HQ should at least accomplish something.

First off, if the Tyrant has gaurd, just walk away from it. If it as wings, it is rather fragile, and here is a list of good Eldar weapons to kill it with:
Bright Lance
Eldar Missile Launcher (Krak)
Firepike
Fusion Gun
Fusion Pistol
Prism Cannon
Pulse Laser
Starcannon
Wraithcannon

All of those have a S of 6, and an Ap of 3 or better, So simply murder Flyrants, and can even hurt a Gaurded Tyrant.

I agree with GMR, Nightlords, and Brother SRM about paroxym.

Or, you know, stick your less-points-harder-to-kill Wraithlord in his face. Considering you can almost take 2 for the same points cost, you'll wound him on 2s and he'll wound you on 6s... right the TYRANT is OP.

Honersstodnt wrote:yea, the 2+ save tyrant with tyrant guard is a pain in the arse to deal with by shooting, because if you fire krak missiles at it he'll just take his tyrant's 2+ save, and if you fire lascannons he'll just take a 4+ cover save on an expendable tyrant guard model. More frustrating now that you can't single him out in hand to hand either... tyrants with guard are a pain in the ass to deal with.

You never could single him out; the rule is 100% clear that JOINING as an IC doesnt actually *mean* you are an IC.

There is no Tyranid unit called "gaunts" or "guants". There are Termagants and Hormagaunts. Please specify one of the other, for the sake of clarity.

Incidentally, I'm as surprised as Night Lords and glad he's already pointed it out.

Yeah, this is not a case of a model being OP, it's one player using his powers wrong, and the other making some poor tactical decisions about how you should handle a threat.

Kroothawk wrote:For the point costs of two Fire Prisms, this HQ should at least accomplish something.

I think this sums up the whole situation better than anything I can say.

I feel bad for the OP, some people here are way underestimating the power of tyranids and some are overestimating. The mistake most people will make with nids are focusing all their fire on the tyrant...yea do that and when all the other T6 creatures that are just as good make in to your lines you will be absolutely screwed.

From my experience the best way to handle Nids with Eldar is to out maneuver them. Watch for the hive guards and if you feel like you really must assault make sure you cover the assaulting units somehow because if the nid player is worth anything, there will be a counter-charge.

For some rules misunderstandings I've seen:
1) Your opponent can only make one unit BS & WS 1, call him out next time.
2) You can't single out the tyrant if he is with guard. He isn't an independent character.
3) Unless your opponent is an idiot he will get cover as his guard aren't MC's and they get cover just like infantry.


To sum it up, if you want to beat a unit like this (arguably one of the strongest hth units in the game for the points), don't assault it. That statement becomes more pertinent if he takes the swarmlord. I personally outfit my tyrant with devourers as most of the skilled players can avoid a hth tyrant. In large game (2500+) I take both the swarmlord and dakka tyrant. If you come across a dakka tyrant, good luck.

Hope this helps, I play BA and Tyranids regularly. I think my advice is pretty sound. Blood angels and tyranids in my experience don't mix well. Nids love lunch that don't run from them and there just aren't many units that BA have that can hold up to the sheer number of MC's and counter-assaults the Tyranids bring to the table. Baal Predator tend to do exremely well in games against nid for me as well as devastators (4ML for 130pts) and vindicators. Always being able to move and shoot the vindicator is nice as it makes it a little more durable. If you are going to assault the big units, make sure you've softened them up a bit.

Anyways, good luck, and remember the above is just my opinion, YMMV.

This conversation has two main discussion points besides the misplay of paroxysm.

1. Tyrant being overpowered. By itself as described by the OP, it's potentially one of the most vulnerable HQ choices in the game. 4 wounds, no invuln, and MC/cover disadvantage. Most people deck them out between 200-300 pts so I have a hard time seeing it as being overpowered.

2. Tyrant + Guard as Honersstodnt described. He is pretty knowledgeable about this because it's the build I use in my tourney list and we face off often. Give the Tyrant 2+ armor upgrade, regen, and the leech psychic power and throw him in with 3 guards. At most, heavy weapons fire will cause 1-2 wounds per firing unit after rolling to hit and wound (long fangs may do more). I always allocate the ap3 wounds to the Tyrant and his 2+. If there are a lot of ap1-2 wounds I still put the first 3 (if they are from separate units) on the Tyrant. Since he cannot be singled out in shooting or cc, I have no worries if he sits with 1 wound. The whole unit will have cover saves at least unitl turn 4-5 with gaunt screens and terrain. Remember the guard are infantry and with 3 guard in cover, the Tyrant gets cover as part of the unit ignoring the MC 50% rule. Tyrant regens wounds on 6's every turn and I can cast leech to get more.

The second scenario/build/playstyle can seem OP if you're unprepared to deal with it. However with all those upgrades, devourers, OA, and whips on the guard, it's a 480pt unit. We play almost exclusively 1850 and our local tourneys are heavily comp scored, so most armies don't have enough firepower to drop the unit early. If they try, that means my trygon, tervigon, and gaunts are getting in your face.

Best way to deal with the Tyrant+guard deathstar is either tarpit it with cheap hordes or stay away from it. Tyrant psychic powers are all 12", the unit is infantry and not fleet.

Eldar have very powerful ranged-weapons. Try to wipe it out with them as soon as it shows its face. I know it's easier to say than to do, but I think that's the best you can do.