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Alright, without further ado here is a tau 1500pt (1499pt actually ) list.

HQ
----
Shas'el with missile pod/plasma rifle, positional relay, bonding knife, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, h.w. multi-tracker
Bodyguard 1 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, failsafe detonator
bodyguard 2 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones

Elite
-----
Crisis shas'ui team leader with bonding knife, t.l. fusion blaster, and 2x shield drones

Fast Attack
-------------
6x Pathfinders (one is team leader with bonding knife)
6x Pathfinders (one is team leader with bonding knife)
2x devilfish with disruption pod and 2x seeker missiles

Heavy Support
-----------------
2x broadsides (both are individual squads and are team leaders with bonding knife)
2x t.l. plasma rifle
2x Advanced stabilization system
2x drone controllers with 2x shield drones apiece

Troops
--------
8x fire warriors (1 is team leader with bonding knife)
7x fire warriors (1 is team leader with bonding knife)



Ready.....Set.....Critique!

update: forgot to write in my troops , and fixed the broadside issue by shifting points around and dropping all blacksun filters

the weasel king wrote:Shas'el with missile pod/plasma rifle, positional relay, bonding knife, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, h.w. multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Bodyguard 1 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, failsafe detonator
bodyguard 2 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones

That's a 9 model unit, six of those bases 40mm. A really big foot print, and easily caught in h2h. And then the show's over.
I'd split the bodyguards into Elite slots.

the weasel king wrote:Crisis shas'ui team leader with bonding knife, t.l. fusion blaster, and 2x shield drones

Since this looks like an anti-Tank suicide suit, why spend so many points on the Drones and TeamL and BK?

the weasel king wrote:6x Pathfinders (one is team leader with bonding knife)
6x Pathfinders (one is team leader with bonding knife)
2x devilfish with disruption pod and 2x seeker missiles

When you shave off point from the bodyguards, and Suicide Suit's SDs *and* then the 2 Seekers, you might just find points for a FireStorm.

the weasel king wrote:2x broadsides (1 is team leader with bonding knife and blacksun filter)
2x t.l. plasma rifle
2x Advanced stabilization system
2x drone controllers with 2x shield drones apiece

May as well ditch the BSFs in the various places you have them in the army, and add a Target Lock, to split fire. Sure, Turn 1, you'll have both hit AV14 or whatever other BigNasty is out there, but on subsequent turns, when it's rhinos and such, splitting fire will be handy, and far more worth it than BSF.

I believe you've left out your troop units.

Shas'el with missile pod/plasma rifle, positional relay, bonding knife, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, h.w. multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Bodyguard 1 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, failsafe detonator
bodyguard 2 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones

That's a 9 model unit, six of those bases 40mm. A really big foot print, and easily caught in h2h. And then the show's over.
I'd split the bodyguards into Elite slots.

See here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/303551.page#1726449 for my reasoning

Crisis shas'ui team leader with bonding knife, t.l. fusion blaster, and 2x shield drones

Since this looks like an anti-Tank suicide suit, why spend so many points on the Drones and TeamL and BK?

To soak up more shots and force my opponent to deal with it.

May as well ditch the BSFs in the various places you have them in the army, and add a Target Lock, to split fire. Sure, Turn 1, you'll have both hit AV14 or whatever other BigNasty is out there, but on subsequent turns, when it's rhinos and such, splitting fire will be handy, and far more worth it than BSF.

Not with my roles...even twin linked I'm lucky with 2 markerlights to get 1 of those broadsides to hit....and trust me, I love probability, it just doesn't love me...

Broadsides (non-TL) can only take one support system, which means your #2 can't have both ASS and a drone controller.

I would lose the seekers on the DF. What you want to hit with seeker missiles, you won't want to pump full of MLs generally. This means that you're going to waste a PF shooting turn to land a seeker missile and let any other ML hits go to waste, in my experience.

Do move the bodygaurds into a regular elite team - the advantage that bodyguards provide just isn't worth the extra points.

Let's see those troop choices, as it seems like you'll have to have a lot in those slots to get up to 1500 points.

I would only ever take BSF on BS, and that's only if I needed to burn 3 points.

Shas'el with missile pod/plasma rifle, positional relay, bonding knife, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, h.w. multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Bodyguard 1 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, failsafe detonator
bodyguard 2 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones

Do you really need that many shield drones? That's alot of points into a unit that is still primarily Bs3 and doesn't have that much firepower. As Brothererekose says split that into 2 standard fireknife teams and you get more dakka, more flexibility and not really lose any survivability.

Crisis shas'ui team leader with bonding knife, t.l. fusion blaster, and 2x shield drones

That's an 83 point meltagun. For just 11 points more you could get 2 suits with TL fusion AND flamers. They will do the primary job better than your guy and have a secondary option of anti-infantry.

2x broadsides (1 is team leader with bonding knife and blacksun filter)
2x t.l. plasma rifle
2x Advanced stabilization system
2x drone controllers with 2x shield drones apiece

This unit (like the entire army) is illegal. You can only take 1 suppoprt system not ASS and Drone controllers, though the TL can take a Hardwired controller. Plasma rifles on Broadsides is rarely cost effective. You're paying points for the Railgun that is what you want them firing the PR just become a distraction that'll you'll either never fire (hence wasting points) or you'll fire thus wasting the Railguin shots (again wasting points). The BSF won't really help you much as the whole squad doesn't have it.

2 railguns and 1 meltagun is not near enough anti-tank at 1,500 points. You'll maybe take out 1 Rhino before the enemy gets to you and that is if you're very lucky.

You have 12 Marker lights but so few weapons to benefit. Whilst you haven't taken ANY troops choices so your army can't hold any objectives and is of course totally illegal.

You've spent so many points on shield drones and other useless wargear (seeker missile, BSF etc) that your army has no troops choices and still manages to have very little fire power.

I'd honestly expect you to lose almost every game and probably be tabled a lot.

Heh. Missed the b-sides having too many points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the weasel king wrote:
2x broadsides (both are individual squads and are team leaders with bonding knife)
2x t.l. plasma rifle
2x Advanced stabilization system
2x drone controllers with 2x shield drones apiece

update: forgot to write in my troops , and fixed the broadside issue by shifting points around and dropping all blacksun filters

Okay. Updated.

I'd put them *back* together to eliminate the extra Kill Point, as Target Lock bypasses this problem, even though you cited probability doesn't like you.

Skip A.s.s. for a couple reasons:
1. It was painful for me to let go, but really, with 5e being TrueLineofSight, it means not having to move the b-sides so much. MT or Target Array is better in 5e. Target Array might just allay your problems with the dice gods, no?
2. You have two teams of PFs to have MLs to deny Cover Saves, so no need to hobble about with Relentless to get a better angle.


If you update it again, repost the list altogether. Having the Original Post updated confuses me.

FlingitNow wrote:

Shas'el with missile pod/plasma rifle, positional relay, bonding knife, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, h.w. multi-tracker, blacksun filter
Bodyguard 1 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones, failsafe detonator
bodyguard 2 with missile pod/plasma rifle, multi-tracker, h.w. drone controller with 2x shield drones

Do you really need that many shield drones? That's alot of points into a unit that is still primarily Bs3 and doesn't have that much firepower. As Brothererekose says split that into 2 standard fireknife teams and you get more dakka, more flexibility and not really lose any survivability.

I disagree, every time I play this squad they a) make up their points b)don't die (seriously, they almost always last me all game) and c)force my opponent to spend several turns of shooting at them before they realize its mostly uselsess and start shoting something else

FlingitNow wrote:]

Crisis shas'ui team leader with bonding knife, t.l. fusion blaster, and 2x shield drones

That's an 83 point meltagun. For just 11 points more you could get 2 suits with TL fusion AND flamers. They will do the primary job better than your guy and have a secondary option of anti-infantry.

{quote]1. It was painful for me to let go, but really, with 5e being TrueLineofSight, it means not having to move the b-sides so much. MT or Target Array is better in 5e. Target Array might just allay your problems with the dice gods, no?

FlingitNow wrote:Whilst this is true the problem is DoW which occurs a 3rd of the time. In that mission to NEED ASS particularly if you're not taking Hammerheads...

Unfortunately that mission alone has forced the Tau players hand.

Exactly, I hate DoW so much! But that is why I take the A.S.S, solely for 1/3 of my games. And it doesn't really hurt in the other 2/3 either...

FlingitNow wrote:Whilst this is true the problem is DoW which occurs a 3rd of the time. In that mission to NEED ASS particularly if you're not taking Hammerheads...

Unfortunately that mission alone has forced the Tau players hand.

Ah, yes. Forgot about that ... for some reason ... hmm. Ah, been playing an odd mission set up lately at the one local GW ... 4 individual players, 1k each getting a corner ... and DoW is not one of the deployments.

I've been taking my 'nids or eldar to the other place for pick up games.

Yeah if you're playing and know DoW (for instance it is a campaign with set missions) is not a possibility then go Targetting Array everytime.

Obviously the counter argument is with Tau you are so screwed by DoW anyway that you might as well concede the game as sson as that deployment is rolled, in which case you may as well have the TA for other mission types


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I disagree, every time I play this squad they a) make up their points b)don't die (seriously, they almost always last me all game) and c)force my opponent to spend several turns of shooting at them before they realize its mostly uselsess and start shoting something else

Why don't they just assault them? BAs can assault you on turn 2 anywhere on the table from Rhinos! Vanilla marines can assault you turn 1.

Really? I was planing on using it more of a hit one transport then serve as bait with a grater survivability than just 2 suits so close to the enemy.

But you'll be in assault range so he doesn't need to shoot you and most likely be in rapidfire range at which point your config is no more survivable, and you'll very rarely actually do significant damage to that transport...

1 meltagun shot is rarely enough to take out a evhicle 2 gives you a decent chance.

thirdly, I find those plasma rifles are great in dealing with a squad that my opponent spends a couple hundred points on that deepstrikes next to the broadsides in order to destroy them. Just because they have railguns, doesn't mean they can't use their other weapons efficiently.

For the first 2 points you've changed your army around to resolve (i,e, by adding in troops and making the BS into 2 squads of 1). The PR will help you in that situation but they are unlikley to resolve the situation on their own. 2 TH/SS Terminators will still wipe out the Broadsides in assault, even if you get very lucky and take out 3 with shooting. The PR are useful just not points efficient as their use is so situational. It is like putting a powerfist into a SM Devastator squad encase you get assault. Sure it helps but it is not an efficient use of points.

Firstly, most games I play are versus people with only 3, 4 tanks tops, so why waist so many points on anti-tank when 2 railguns and a meltagun are enough for the people I play regularly?
Secondly, those markerlights actually work wonders for me, depending on the situation I use them to either a)increase bs (obviously) b)reduce cover (obviously) or c)pin a unit that really needs to be out of the picture for a turn (not as obvious but works great if done right)
Thirdly, shield drones and seeker missiles are not useless, they can be used as effective protection and anti-transport respectively.
Fourthly, I tend to run similar lists a lot (not quite like this, I'm trying a few new tactics), but I don't get tabled. Over the weekend I play 4 games (not a lot I know) but my w/t/l ratio was 1/2/1 where one tie would have been mine one one more turn (played it through) and the other I would have lost in a turn or 2. The loss was not that bad and the win was epic.

Then your opponents are taking poor lists, so your defence of your list seems to hinge on your regular opponents taking even worse lists. On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists. No point in comparing it to non-competitive lists as almost any list you choose could be made worse (usually by adding Aun'Va).

Against good lists this list will struggle. It has very little firepower, very few bodies and no way of dealing with or avoiding assault.

MLs are ace and so are shield drones. But your list has lots of flab the shield drones being the biggest thing. Whilst MLs are only as good as the dakka you have to utilise them.

FlingitNow wrote:

I disagree, every time I play this squad they a) make up their points b)don't die (seriously, they almost always last me all game) and c)force my opponent to spend several turns of shooting at them before they realize its mostly uselsess and start shoting something else

Why don't they just assault them? BAs can assault you on turn 2 anywhere on the table from Rhinos! Vanilla marines can assault you turn 1.

They don't assault me because I tend to be careful where I put them. I don't just say, this looks like a nice spot, I pick a point as to where the terrain is and (if I'm going second) where my opponent's models are. Also, I do keep them away from combat with jsj and massive fire from my army, occasionally they do get into close combat, but that's why I like the failsafe detonator (just thought about an idea using an ethereal to force a reroll of a passed save here... I'll have to look into that).

FlingitNow wrote:

Really? I was planing on using it more of a hit one transport then serve as bait with a grater survivability than just 2 suits so close to the enemy.

But you'll be in assault range so he doesn't need to shoot you and most likely be in rapidfire range at which point your config is no more survivable, and you'll very rarely actually do significant damage to that transport...

If he want's to assault me, he has to forgo shooting at something else, which is fine. Rapid fire is no more survivable, true, but what about if he gets a s8 gun in there? Shield drones could help there and then at least I can tie up a squad for 1-2 turns. Seems well worth 80sumthin points to me.

FlingitNow wrote:1 meltagun shot is rarely enough to take out a evhicle 2 gives you a decent chance.

Huh? using markerlights to hit on 2s with a s2d6+8 hit that's normally gona hit and get a 15 on the roll (average of 2d6 is 7+8=15) then I need a 4+ to destroy it, a 3 to immobilize (just as good in many situations imo) a 2 to destory a weapon (not great but hey, a missing lascannon is a missing lascannon), and a 1 means he can't move or shoot the next turn (sure he could pile out and assault him, but that's an extra turn for me to play with my guns)

FlingitNow wrote:

thirdly, I find those plasma rifles are great in dealing with a squad that my opponent spends a couple hundred points on that deepstrikes next to the broadsides in order to destroy them. Just because they have railguns, doesn't mean they can't use their other weapons efficiently.

For the first 2 points you've changed your army around to resolve (i,e, by adding in troops and making the BS into 2 squads of 1). The PR will help you in that situation but they are unlikley to resolve the situation on their own. 2 TH/SS Terminators will still wipe out the Broadsides in assault, even if you get very lucky and take out 3 with shooting. The PR are useful just not points efficient as their use is so situational. It is like putting a powerfist into a SM Devastator squad encase you get assault. Sure it helps but it is not an efficient use of points.

I never said that I'd use just them, but trust me, it really does help to have 4 s6 ap2 shots, especially when using markerlights (if its not a fearless squad my snipers could pin them as well, so that's an extra turn there as well)

FlingitNow wrote:

Firstly, most games I play are versus people with only 3, 4 tanks tops, so why waist so many points on anti-tank when 2 railguns and a meltagun are enough for the people I play regularly?
Secondly, those markerlights actually work wonders for me, depending on the situation I use them to either a)increase bs (obviously) b)reduce cover (obviously) or c)pin a unit that really needs to be out of the picture for a turn (not as obvious but works great if done right)
Thirdly, shield drones and seeker missiles are not useless, they can be used as effective protection and anti-transport respectively.
Fourthly, I tend to run similar lists a lot (not quite like this, I'm trying a few new tactics), but I don't get tabled. Over the weekend I play 4 games (not a lot I know) but my w/t/l ratio was 1/2/1 where one tie would have been mine one one more turn (played it through) and the other I would have lost in a turn or 2. The loss was not that bad and the win was epic.

Then your opponents are taking poor lists, so your defence of your list seems to hinge on your regular opponents taking even worse lists. On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists. No point in comparing it to non-competitive lists as almost any list you choose could be made worse (usually by adding Aun'Va).

I don't know if I'd agree with my opponents taking bad lists, and trust me, my standard opponent can make some mean lists. IMO in 1500pts 2 railguns, 1 deepstriking melta, 4 seeker missiles, and missile pods and plasma rifles (for week tanks on side or back armor) seems pretty good to me.

FlingitNow wrote:Against good lists this list will struggle. It has very little firepower, very few bodies and no way of dealing with or avoiding assault.

As for the firepower, It does have some, maybe not as much as a completely aggressive list but plenty for a control list. Same for assault, I force my opponent to go after certain units that I pick, which actually works pretty well most of the time.

MLs are ace and so are shield drones. But your list has lots of flab the shield drones being the biggest thing. Whilst MLs are only as good as the dakka you have to utilise them.

FlingitNow wrote:Then your opponents are taking poor lists, so your defence of your list seems to hinge on your regular opponents taking even worse lists. On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists. No point in comparing it to non-competitive lists as almost any list you choose could be made worse (usually by adding Aun'Va).

Against good lists this list will struggle. It has very little firepower, very few bodies and no way of dealing with or avoiding assault.

@Flingit- I strongly disagree with this thought process. There is nothing stating that Dakka or its 40K Army List forum are the soveriegn domain of the competitive gamer. Now it is the OP's responsibility to post what level of a game he is playing and if he doesn't then he should expect a barrage of WAAC list advice. If the OP later states that he is not looking for WAAC lists, but rather semi-comp ones then you have to honor those wishes or be considered to be in violation of Dakka's rules of conduct. Your comment above came across as insulting to people that you don't know and also unnecessarily inflamatory. Instead of thinking this: "On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists." maybe instead think this: "On Dakka we'll help you"

Before you get upset I have a few words for the OP


@the weasel king-If you do not want to deal with the pointless arguing about what level of list your looking for then you need to put what level you are looking in your opening post. This should be done as a courtesy to those who will be trying to help you. So far FlingitNow has given very good advice with the only thing I disagree with being his stance on the lists level of competitiveness after you informed him of your intent for a list that would be best descrided as Semi-comp. If you have a question as to what the difference is between Fluff, Semi-comp and comp lists are then ask or post a description of intended play in the opening post. And no, A link to another thread describing such really is not sufficient. It should be there for people to read right off the bat.


As to your Semi-comp list, I'll post a list or link in a little bit that might work as a starting point.

They don't assault me because I tend to be careful where I put them. I don't just say, this looks like a nice spot, I pick a point as to where the terrain is and (if I'm going second) where my opponent's models are. Also, I do keep them away from combat with jsj and massive fire from my army, occasionally they do get into close combat, but that's why I like the failsafe detonator (just thought about an idea using an ethereal to force a reroll of a passed save here... I'll have to look into that).

You don't have massive fire you have moderate at best fire. Terrain and model placement won't helpyou against Vanilla marines with a 45" first turn charge range... Likewise BAs are on you turn 2 no matter were you place your models...

Huh? using markerlights to hit on 2s with a s2d6+8 hit that's normally gona hit and get a 15 on the roll (average of 2d6 is 7+8=15) then I need a 4+ to destroy it, a 3 to immobilize (just as good in many situations imo) a 2 to destory a weapon (not great but hey, a missing lascannon is a missing lascannon), and a 1 means he can't move or shoot the next turn (sure he could pile out and assault him, but that's an extra turn for me to play with my guns)

Yes you'll hit, yes most of the time you'll penetrate and then 50% of the time you'll get that destroyed result. All in all it'll against say AV12 you have about a 40% success rate (with 2 ML hits), you get double that by having 2 suits, but by the time your suit arrives transports will have done their job so realistically you should be hunting heavier tanks against AV14 your odds are 30%. It doesn't have a meaningful effect on your survivability unless you're up against a lot of missile launchers. So you're most of the time throwing the unit away for little to no gain, with my config you're throwing it away for a very good chance of taking out that target.

I never said that I'd use just them, but trust me, it really does help to have 4 s6 ap2 shots, especially when using markerlights (if its not a fearless squad my snipers could pin them as well, so that's an extra turn there as well)

You have no snipers listed for pinning and even if you did pinning is not a great success chance and if you pin a marine squad they can just choose to break to get out of the pinning effect most other things have Ld10 or are fearless. If you're not going to use them often is it worth 20 points? The only things you have a decent chance of pinning are Tau and IG neither of which will be hugely bothered by it.

I don't know if I'd agree with my opponents taking bad lists, and trust me, my standard opponent can make some mean lists. IMO in 1500pts 2 railguns, 1 deepstriking melta, 4 seeker missiles, and missile pods and plasma rifles (for week tanks on side or back armor) seems pretty good to me.

Things that tell me you're opponents build good lists:

They have plenty of armour

They are almost fully mech

They can assault you the turn they arrive or in the first turn.

They can assault enmasse in turn 2

2 Railguns 1 melta and a couple of seekers won't cut it against any sort of decent list. To take out a Rhino that has popped smoke it in general takes about 4-5 Railgun hits in my experience, though by maths it would be well you have 22% chance with a single railgun hit to destroy a Rhino so about 4-5 hits is bang on. You have 2 shots in your entire army. Plus 2 S8 shots so with your entire army firing at a Rhino you'd probably take 1 out statiscally...

As I said that does not cut it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

@Flingit- I strongly disagree with this thought process. There is nothing stating that Dakka or its 40K Army List forum are the soveriegn domain of the competitive gamer. Now it is the OP's responsibility to post what level of a game he is playing and if he doesn't then he should expect a barrage of WAAC list advice. If the OP later states that he is not looking for WAAC lists, but rather semi-comp ones then you have to honor those wishes or be considered to be in violation of Dakka's rules of conduct. Your comment above came across as insulting to people that you don't know and also unnecessarily inflamatory. Instead of thinking this: "On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists." maybe instead think this: "On Dakka we'll help you"

Before you get upset I have a few words for the OP

I hope the OP got my intent I was trying to explain that when giving advice on lists the natural way well do it is to improve it. The only standard we can improve it against if not given a fluff reason for the list (or a specific opponent or idea etc) is to improve it against competitive lists. That is the basis we'll judge a list on and make suggestions against, that was my point.

The aim here is obviously to help the OP get a better list and win more games. Obviously everyone has different playing styles and we all will naturally advise towards lists that compliament our own. However the Tau really are a race that has been so curtailed by 5th ed that cookie cuttering lists is in most cases the best solution as so few build types work.

Obviously it is understandable the OP will try to defend his decisions because they will have been made for a reason. I'm just trying to help as best I can and I'm glad you think my advice has been good .

focusedfire wrote: @Flingit- I strongly disagree with this thought process. There is nothing stating that Dakka or its 40K Army List forum are the soveriegn domain of the competitive gamer. Now it is the OP's responsibility to post what level of a game he is playing and if he doesn't then he should expect a barrage of WAAC list advice. If the OP later states that he is not looking for WAAC lists, but rather semi-comp ones then you have to honor those wishes or be considered to be in violation of Dakka's rules of conduct. Your comment above came across as insulting to people that you don't know and also unnecessarily inflamatory. Instead of thinking this: "On Dakka we'll help you stream line your list and work on the basis of what will improve it against competitive lists." maybe instead think this: "On Dakka we'll help you"

Before you get upset I have a few words for the OP

C'mon, this is the kind of post I expect to see on ATT where everybody goes out of their way to not hurt each others feelings (for the greater good), but somehow comes across as condescending towards anybody who doesn't agree with the consensus. Very tau, yet very annoying.

Dakka was (some say still is, but its a matter of opinion) a haven for more competitive gaming, sort of a refuge from the fluff oriented players at warseer. Quite a bit of that went away as it became more popular. (thus proving the idea that when things become popular, they start to lose the reason why they became popular).

Labeling competitive gamers WAAC is doing them a disservice. WAAC players are guys who will seek any advantage, including ones that bend or break the rules in unsporting ways. Giving advice that does neither of these is not WAAC. Trying to win does not make you WAAC, in fact it would be an awfully dull game if you or your opponent wasn't trying to win, or at least trying to not lose.

So hearing advice that is somewhat harsh is usually expected here, at least in my experience. If you want people to critic a list, then expect people to question the choices, if you defend a questionable list, expect people to say bad things about your opponents abilities (people who just play among their friends have the small pond problem quite often).



As for the list itself, I think that two pathfinders squads is too much consider how many suits and broadsides/hammer heads there are. The war gear is a bit of a mess honestly, not very efficient (read war gear bloat), and I don't think I've ever seen so many bonding knives.

notabot187 wrote:C'mon, this is the kind of post I expect to see on ATT where everybody goes out of their way to not hurt each others feelings (for the greater good), but somehow comes across as condescending towards anybody who doesn't agree with the consensus. Very tau, yet very annoying.

Heh! Not just me. Yeah, I saw ATT as a darkly paneled room full of old fogies. Lotsa brandy snifters and cigars, and smoking jackets. Rife with back-handed compliments. Real conservative. Pip-pip, wot-wot!

Mind you, a *must* read for tau nooBs. My tau game improved dramatically faster than any secondary army I've picked up since starting 40k with SM.

notabot187 wrote:C'mon, this is the kind of post I expect to see on ATT where everybody goes out of their way to not hurt each others feelings (for the greater good), but somehow comes across as condescending towards anybody who doesn't agree with the consensus. Very tau, yet very annoying.

Dakka was (some say still is, but its a matter of opinion) a haven for more competitive gaming, sort of a refuge from the fluff oriented players at warseer. Quite a bit of that went away as it became more popular. (thus proving the idea that when things become popular, they start to lose the reason why they became popular).

Labeling competitive gamers WAAC is doing them a disservice. WAAC players are guys who will seek any advantage, including ones that bend or break the rules in unsporting ways. Giving advice that does neither of these is not WAAC. Trying to win does not make you WAAC, in fact it would be an awfully dull game if you or your opponent wasn't trying to win, or at least trying to not lose.

So hearing advice that is somewhat harsh is usually expected here, at least in my experience. If you want people to critic a list, then expect people to question the choices, if you defend a questionable list, expect people to say bad things about your opponents abilities (people who just play among their friends have the small pond problem quite often).

1)You weren't around after a certain Tau player had half of the forum hating on the Tau simply because of association to him. I and others have worked hard to break the stigma.
As far as annoying goes, I think the annoying asshat award goes to the noobs that come in condenscendingly spouting twice regurgitated lists advice as set in stone fact to those that originally helped to develope the basic framework of the lists they are touting.
(Grumble*........Darn whippersnappers...Get off of my lawn!!...Shakes fist)

2)Dakka is a haven open to everyone, they just have to understand that there are areas in the form where we play rough, very rough.

3)When someone says that they want to play semi-comp and someone else effectively says, "NO, You must play full comp". That brushes up on the WAAC mentality. If you have trouble understanding such, then that may be a sign that you are a WAAC player.

4)If the list is Semi-comp then you adjust your advice and don't get all butt-hurt when they stop listening to you.

FlingitNow wrote:You don't have massive fire you have moderate at best fire. Terrain and model placement won't helpyou against Vanilla marines with a 45" first turn charge range... Likewise BAs are on you turn 2 no matter were you place your models...

Okay I give up. I play vanilla marines and have since I started, yet I am unaware of any combination that can give you a 45" assault radius.

Longest I am aware of is LR(any) terminators for 12 move + 2disembark + 2 base + 6 run(with shrike) + 6 assault = 28". Where do you get 45"?

Maybe scout bikes turbo boost 24 + 12 move + 6 assault =42?

focusedfire wrote:

notabot187 wrote:C'mon, this is the kind of post I expect to see on ATT where everybody goes out of their way to not hurt each others feelings (for the greater good), but somehow comes across as condescending towards anybody who doesn't agree with the consensus. Very tau, yet very annoying.

Dakka was (some say still is, but its a matter of opinion) a haven for more competitive gaming, sort of a refuge from the fluff oriented players at warseer. Quite a bit of that went away as it became more popular. (thus proving the idea that when things become popular, they start to lose the reason why they became popular).

Labeling competitive gamers WAAC is doing them a disservice. WAAC players are guys who will seek any advantage, including ones that bend or break the rules in unsporting ways. Giving advice that does neither of these is not WAAC. Trying to win does not make you WAAC, in fact it would be an awfully dull game if you or your opponent wasn't trying to win, or at least trying to not lose.

So hearing advice that is somewhat harsh is usually expected here, at least in my experience. If you want people to critic a list, then expect people to question the choices, if you defend a questionable list, expect people to say bad things about your opponents abilities (people who just play among their friends have the small pond problem quite often).

1)You weren't around after a certain Tau player had half of the forum hating on the Tau simply because of association to him. I and others have worked hard to break the stigma.
As far as annoying goes, I think the annoying asshat award goes to the noobs that come in condenscendingly spouting twice regurgitated lists advice as set in stone fact to those that originally helped to develope the basic framework of the lists they are touting.
(Grumble*........Darn whippersnappers...Get off of my lawn!!...Shakes fist)

2)Dakka is a haven open to everyone, they just have to understand that there are areas in the form where we play rough, very rough.

3)When someone says that they want to play semi-comp and someone else effectively says, "NO, You must play full comp". That brushes up on the WAAC mentality. If you have trouble understanding such, then that may be a sign that you are a WAAC player.

4)If the list is Semi-comp then you adjust your advice and don't get all butt-hurt when they stop listening to you.

If you are talking about stelek, I'm aware of him. I've lurked here far longer than I've been actively posting. I think I started lurking back in 2007. 3 years doesn't make me a dakka vet, sure, but I'm not a noob by any stretch.

How do can you tell if this list is meant to competitive? Do you just adjust your advice to semi competitive if it's a bad attempt at being competitive? I didn't see anywhere on this thread where it said anything of the sort. (honestly I wouldn't call it even semi competitive considering the "fun" lists I play against)

WAAC mentality? I just want to win without breaking the rules, bending the rules, or being a in game. I want to have an opponent who does the same, because playing against someone who isn't even seriously trying to win is boring to me. I've brought soft lists before, usually to break in a newer player who doesn't own much, or someone who got sold a crappy army and is rebuilding it. Heck, I even play fluffy story driven games occasionally. But in games where I am trying win, against an opponent who is also trying to win, I find it insulting if one player isn't bringing an effective list and playing it as well as they can. Sure, try new things out, not going to tell you anything if your opponent is throwing you slow pitches. When competitive games go all soft and mushy, its ends up as dumb as USA youth soccer leagues, where they often don't even keep score.

notabot187 wrote:If you are talking about stelek, I'm aware of him. I've lurked here far longer than I've been actively posting. I think I started lurking back in 2007. 3 years doesn't make me a dakka vet, sure, but I'm not a noob by any stretch.

How do can you tell if this list is meant to competitive? Do you just adjust your advice to semi competitive if it's a bad attempt at being competitive? I didn't see anywhere on this thread where it said anything of the sort. (honestly I wouldn't call it even semi competitive considering the "fun" lists I play against)

WAAC mentality? I just want to win without breaking the rules, bending the rules, or being a in game. I want to have an opponent who does the same, because playing against someone who isn't even seriously trying to win is boring to me. I've brought soft lists before, usually to break in a newer player who doesn't own much, or someone who got sold a crappy army and is rebuilding it. Heck, I even play fluffy story driven games occasionally. But in games where I am trying win, against an opponent who is also trying to win, I find it insulting if one player isn't bringing an effective list and playing it as well as they can. Sure, try new things out, not going to tell you anything if your opponent is throwing you slow pitches. When competitive games go all soft and mushy, its ends up as dumb as USA youth soccer leagues, where they often don't even keep score.

1)You mentioned the name that must not be named ...........AAAGGGGGGGGHHhhhhhhh. Seriously, I used to catch hate meant for him but I refuse to give up StarBlazers or Tau because people hate him. Also doesn't help that there are a fair number of things the he says I agree with, His ego, style, and delivery are his biggest enemies. Wouldn't mind playing him in a couple of games. I'm out of practice so he'd most likely win, but I still think it would be intersting. I think that I'd give him a headache.

2)About the Op's intentions, he didn't state them at the beginning but did say this in his third post:

the weasel king said:
Firstly, most games I play are versus people with only 3, 4 tanks tops, so why waist so many points on anti-tank when 2 railguns and a meltagun are enough for the people I play regularly?
Secondly, those markerlights actually work wonders for me, depending on the situation I use them to either a)increase bs (obviously) b)reduce cover (obviously) or c)pin a unit that really needs to be out of the picture for a turn (not as obvious but works great if done right)
Thirdly, shield drones and seeker missiles are not useless, they can be used as effective protection and anti-transport respectively.
Fourthly, I tend to run similar lists a lot (not quite like this, I'm trying a few new tactics), but I don't get tabled. Over the weekend I play 4 games (not a lot I know) but my w/t/l ratio was 1/2/1 where one tie would have been mine one one more turn (played it through) and the other I would have lost in a turn or 2. The loss was not that bad and the win was epic.

Between this and his other thread it is clear what he is looking for.

If your question is a bit more general, I have found that unless they Say competitive or Tourney in the Title "It is always good to ask". I've found it to be quite the time saver. The next step is if they seem to be stuck on a theme them the thread will often end in tears if someone keeps pushing comp.

3)Yes there is a difference between comp players and WAAC but the line between can get a little fuzzy. Especially to those semi-comp and fluffy players. It is harder for them to make the distinction. Also, Telling a guy to build a wreck your face list to play amoungst his friends can be perceived as nudging close to the WAAC mentality by these players.

Again, It never hurts to ask if the post isn't clear. Also check their post count and even their profile. Honestly, if the guy is a true noob then telling him to get a conp army together nay be a mistake. You can help them to save money but you should let them make their mistakes in order to help their learnig curve.

BTW, The no-score soccer crap comes from americans embracing a non-compatitive socialist ideal. I hate it and will blame the sugary sweetness of it, if I ever get diabetes.

Dracos

I have 3 words for you Land Speeder Storm...

Probably one of my favourite choices in the SM codex (after Hammernators of course). So for Tau players for a 170 points I have a unit that assaults 45" in turn 1 has a combi-melta, 4 Bolt pistol shots, a heavy flamer (which kills FW on a 2+ with no save) and then when they charge in they get 4 attacks each, one has a powerfist and the enemy is at Ld-2. I gebnerally use 2 and they are brutal against any army that does castle VERY well.

Back to the Semi-Competitive vs Competitive thing. It just seems bizarre to me "please improve my list but not too much," sorry what? Unless there is a fluff reason behind your list having certain units I'll advise against taking inefficient units or combinations.

What I don't do is advise peope to build my army. If someone building a Marine gunline I'm not going to start tellling him to take LSSs or 2 Hammernator squads or Shrike etc. Which can all be excellent choices in the right list. This list has no dicernable theme or fluff (or at least none mentioned) so I'm just going to help him stream line as much as I can. Yes he'll defend his choices and yes I'll try to explain why I feel he's incorrect. If it gets heated as long as he and I don't lose sight of me trying to help him we should all get on fine.

@Flingitnow-One of the big reasons for people to limit themselves is that either they themselves or members in their gaming group just don't have the budget for the insta-comp army.

In such groups it is often frowned upon to spend your way to an advantage. Don't worry though, They will all get X-mas/B-day gifts or some such and eventually after about 9 months or so, either a comp or power gamer is born.

I understand not everyone will have all models at their disposal. But the advice should remain the same. The player can then make the best of it from their model selection and then make future purchases with a better plan in mind using the experience from other gamers.

Yet, different lists will warrant different advice.

There is no use in my telling someone to kroot wrap when they are going fully mechanized. Sure they can help protect a unit or two until the 12" movement leaves the kroot behind.

Trying to force advice on someone when they don't want to or are not listening is a tough road that requires patience and a gentler touch than just hammering at them post after post.

Of course, sometimes the shock value of the hammer works but it is a tough call when to use it.

Yet, different lists will warrant different advice.

I know and you'll notice I've not once mentioned a Kroot wrap or a positional relay. For me Ninja or Kroot wrap are the only true competitive builds because otherwise you effectively auto lose to turn 1 assaulting armies if you go second.

All my advice has been to augment his list and work within the parameters he set with his initial build.

Soemtimes the hammer is the best approach, sometimes the hammer is the only approach I've got the patience for .

Perhaps the list is usable in your FLGS but it is not a good list. Most comments have been given already but in a nutshell:
- not enough troops, I'd go for 3
- way too many shield drones. You've got 150 pts tied up in there that don't help you win the game.