Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is my first attempt at a Khorne CSM army. The rules for this army is everything has to have MoK, and be combat orientated. I plan on using bezerkers instea of normal CSMs to keep it themed.


HQ
Chaos lord
Mark of Khorne
Daemon weapon 140


Chaos lord
Mark of Khorne
Powerfist
Combi melta 135


Troops
10 khorne Bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerweapon
Meltabombs
Rhino
Daemonic possesion
Combimelta 310


9 khorne Bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerweapon
Meltabombs
Rhino
Daemonic possesion
Combimelta 289


9 khorne Bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerweapon
Meltabombs
Rhino
Daemonic possesion
Combimelta 289

Heavy Support
Chaos Defiler
2 close combat arms 150

Chaos Defiler
2 close combat arms 150
Total 1463

The plan is to try and get my bezerkers into combat as soon as possible. The rhinos have possesion so they can get the bezerkers in cc fast and Combi meltas to go after armoured targets once the bezerkers have got out. The defilers use battlecannons on tanks.

Is this list any good and how can I improve.
Thanks
4M2A

Planning on using the defiler's battlecannons on vehicles isn't the best plan. The battlecannon is much better at taking out infantry blobs than armor. I aslo think your berzerker squads are going to wind up walking. Why use a rhino to move assault troops across the field when you have a true assault vehicle available to you. Take two squads of berzerkers and put them in landraiders with demonic possession.

I don't have my CSM codex on hand but I would maybe try something like this:

2xDP w/MoK, wings

2x10 berzerkers w/skull champ, powerfist, meltabombs

2 land raiders w/demonic possession

I think you can get more mileage out of this list. Your opponent will have a hard time stopping your land raiders before they get into their lines, and they will also have to worry about your two mean DPs flying at them.

augustus5 wrote:Planning on using the defiler's battlecannons on vehicles isn't the best plan. The battlecannon is much better at taking out infantry blobs than armor. I aslo think your berzerker squads are going to wind up walking. Why use a rhino to move assault troops across the field when you have a true assault vehicle available to you. Take two squads of berzerkers and put them in landraiders with demonic possession.

I don't have my CSM codex on hand but I would maybe try something like this:

2xDP w/MoK, wings

2x10 berzerkers w/skull champ, powerfist, meltabombs

2 land raiders w/demonic possession

I think you can get more mileage out of this list. Your opponent will have a hard time stopping your land raiders before they get into their lines, and they will also have to worry about your two mean DPs flying at them.

Your list is pretty good, but it's too minimalistic for a 1500 point list. 2 land raiders is way too many, I wouldn't even use 1 TBH.

Try:
-Your lord -170
-5 Terminators w MOK and powerfists -240
-5 Terminators w MOK and double lightning claws -240
-10 berserkers w 2 plasma pistols, rhino -275
-10 berserkers w 2 plasma pistols, rhino -275

That's exactly 1200 points, so I'd use the heavy slot for either 2 units of 2 obliterators OR 2 Defilers. I'd personally do the latter.

Footslogging on zerkers is bad. Transport is tops and I am personally a fan of Landraiders. Since they are assault vehicles, you can race your group to a unit, deploy and assault (A zerker that is not in CC is not serving the blood god and is vulnerable to long ranged shooting). They are also hard to crack and pack lascannons. I would personally keep zerkers in cost effective units of 8 (8 zerkers with a fist champ is 208 points).

Here is a template suggestion below. It is basically a gimmicky lascannon, mech and zerker spam list. The wall of armour can be scarey and the DP provides additional tank cracking support. This list also contains 6 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters and 1 AC

DP with Wings and MOK = 140

8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208
8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208
8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208

1 Rhino with extra armour = 50
2 x LR: 440
1 AC/LC Pred= 130

116 points leftover to spend on upgrades and extra men.

This list can easilly be tailored to suit your needs. Feel free to swap out the HQ, and pred with whatever you want. Do you want extra men, swap out the pred and add some icons and daemons. Do you want oblits, swap out a LR for a unit of 3 oblits. Do you want a Daemon Weapon Lord, swap the DP for a DW Lord. Do you want another DP, swap the pred for a DP with wings. You can even swap a zerker squad for a group of 5 terminators with upgrades for the same amount of points.

So can LRs cover the anti tank?
I like this list quite a lot:

DP with Wings and MOK = 140

8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208
8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208
8 Zerkers with fist champ = 208

1 Rhino with extra armour = 50
2 x LR: 440
1 AC/LC Pred= 130

How much better are DP than Chaos Lords? I would prefer to take A Chaos lord but if they are much worse i'll go with a DP.
I am against giving my zerkers plamsa pistols as the plan is for them to be in combat for as much of the game as possible. Any that die from gets hot don't get into combat and thats where they will really do the damage.

I am slightly concerned that by taking LRs I am cutting down my anti tank, would this list scale up to 2000 points well? I was considering adding some Dual CCW Dreadnoughts in my 2000 point army. These would be fluffy and would improve my ability to take on tank heavy armies, my ownly concern is everyone claims dreads aren't a good choice.

LRs do pack anti tank and are a great distraction. What tends to happen is that your opponent will be off put by seeing 2 LRs in a 1500 list and will have to concentrate his ant tank to deal with it. The LRs main purpose is to provide cover, safe transportation and assault delivery for your troops. They also pack lacannons which can be used for anti tank. The list also has a pred that can provide additional fire support. With this many lascannons, you should be able to destroy an opponents transports early and limit their movement. At 2000 points you could probably squeeze third LR (if you swap out the pred) but only do this if you like LR rush lists.

Generally chaos dreads are either hit or miss. If they go crazy and you role a 1 or 6, they might do something foolish, resulting in the dread or a friendly unit of yours dead. In my personal experience, they are mainly a “fun” unit. I remember my lascannon dread (my las dread is 10 years old and I assembled it when I first started out with 40k. It is painted in World Eaters colours) rolling fire frenzy in front of an unaccompanied Abaddon and managed to take a wound off him. A turn later I rolled 1 for blood frenzy, he charged Abaddon and exploded. It can also be noted that dreads can really put a spanner into your opponent’s plans (such as smashing weak tanks and delaying units that do not have enough powerfists and melta guns to deal with the dread). If you go dreads, with heavy flamers, 2 CCW or multi meltas and keep them away from vulnerable units. It is probably also best to shell out the extra 15 points for extra armour. You could probably squeeze in a dread into the above list if you don’t spend the 116 points on upgrades if you want to road test one.

Another anti tank idea that I have heard mixed reviews about is running a couple of 3 man, dual melta biker squads (3 bikers with 2 meltas costs 119 points). Generally you would run these units crazily unto enemy armour as quickly as possible and have them melta stuff before they die. If you play your cards right, you can stuff your opponents plans early on.

In terms of lord vs DP, it comes down to personal preference and you should do the same. Don't get confused by all the pro DP supporters on the forums. A DP operates as a distraction and anti tank unit, kind of like a dread with 2 CCW. DPs are best use with the warptime power and similar supporting units another DP, greater daemon. Dreads etc. A lord operates best inside a supporting unit CC unit and wreaking havoc. Lords work best in LR lists. Personally I am a lord fan. I only suggest you use a lord if you like lords or have a well painted mini that you want to use.

The list above is just a template list that can easily swap stuff out to suit your tastes. I would suggest in maintaining the theme of the list which is OMG lots of tanks and CC units.

I like your list candy.man. Let me make a suggestion. We still have 116 points leftover right? We can drop the rhino and pred, and give the third zerker squad a landraider as well. We should still have enough points for demonic possesion on all three landraiders. I think demonic possesion is important because it keeps your landraiders moving after getting hit. Three landraiders will be tough to deal with at 1500 points.

Do World Eaters even use dreadnoughts? I mean a regular CSM goes insane in that box on legs, I can't imagine how a servant of Khorne would feel. The funniest thing with the dreads IMO is to roll a six so you finaly get into close combat! Dread with fleet are scary.

I don't think ALL World Eaters are the specific modification known as "Bezerkers"; at least I have not read it that way in the codex; so I think regular CSM+MoK+specials are appropriate when you need more points.

I like to think that NumberZero is correct that not all world eaters are berzerkers. They are probably more apt to become berzerkers because of the nature of Angron's gene seed though.

What I am saying is that the specific unit called Bezerker is not merely a CSM that is very angry; or in a rage. They are lobotomized and have gland modifications. Codex also says "Those who want to be Bezerkers join World Eaters"(paraphrase-pg.36).

Thus; a lobotomized killing machine would hardly be able to do surgical lobotomies. Also; as a tactical matter, no commander would WANT all of his troops lobotomized.

@augustus5
That is a great idea that I didn't think of. 3 LRs at 1500 is a great idea and at 2000 points, there is 500 points to play with for support units.

Not all berzerkers are World Eaters, but all World Eaters are berzerkers. I believe that's how the 4th ed codex put it, back when WE had rules. And don't forget to bring Kharn.

Thanks for the suggestions augustus5 and candy man.
I have taken into consdieration all the suggestions and here is my new list.

Chaos lord
Mark of Khorne
Melta bombs
Daemon weapon 145

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240
Total 1489

Here is the list increased to 2000 points.

Chaos lord
Mark of Khorne
Melta bombs
Daemon weapon 145

Chaos Dreadnought
Dual CCW 100

Chaos Dreadnought
Dual CCW 100

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

8 Khorne bezerkers
Skull champion
Powerfist 208

3 Chaos Bikers
2 Melta guns 119

3 Chaos Bikers
2 Melta guns 119

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240

Land Raider
Daemonic possesion 240
Total 1927

I took the Chaos lord as I prefr the support in my bezerker squad to somehting that will fight by itself. The daemon weapon may be a risk but I roll well it will do a lot of damage. A bad roll may kill the lord but he is only 145 points.

I am not too concerned about the dreads firing at my own squads as they only have bolters, most of units are unlikely to harmed by that. As long as I keep them away from any of my units they can damage they shouldn't be too much of a problem. I think the small risk is worth it to get the chance of a fleeting dreadnought. Plus they fit the theme well.

Great list. What is interesting is that you have managed to incorporate all the suggestions whilst having solid outlook on everything. This list appears to have everything and rounds out its weaknesses.

You may have issues in kill point battles but you also have LRs to body block your opponent. There is so much anti tank and grunt it is crazy. I will tell you one thing, your 2000 point list would give mine a run for its money (and a lot of others)

One last question, on a scale of 1 to 10 how much of a competitive list is this? I do want to be able to play competitively (after tau I need something to be able to win hard games with)but I do want to be able to play in friendly games. Where I play we do try to keep it friendly and I want to keep the games reasonable.

I'd give it a 7, compared to other things. You'll win most of the time, but you'll lose enough.

Without plauge marines, I can't give any CSM list anything above an 8.

candy.man wrote:Rolled 1 for blood frenzy, he charged Abaddon and exploded.

What Edition was this in? Right now, Blood Rage only causes it to attack enemies.

I just don't feel there is enough saturation in this 3 LR list. Yes AV 14 is awesome, but in the current incarnation of this game melta weapons are so rampant its insane. Alpha strike melta armies would leave you footslogging. Plus CSM LR's suck. Removing the infernal device ruined them. And using them as a berserker transport means you are moving 12" and therefore not firing for the first 1-3 turns, which is a waste of 240pts (with possession). Honestly I never have a problem with any assault army using transports. Just because you can't assault when a tank moves, doesn't mean you can't disembark and assault. Just get out before the tank moves. Ya hide behind terrain/other tanks as you advance T1, T2 go 12" and pop smoke, T3 you should be able to jump out and charge into assault with proper tactics.
OK, I'm tired and rambling, that's enough for now.

Having been thinking about this list I am worried about my opponent running forward and getting my LR with meltas.

Is this a problem? In a melta heavy environment would rhinos be better?

No one?

I also have the worry that in games which do no allow me to deploy any units I am going to end up with a load of footslogging zerkers.

Rhino's are the better option. LR spam isn't what it used to be. Just use something to shield them (preds or vindi's) on T1 then rush, pop smoke T2, and T3 disembark before rhino moves which means you can still move and charge. Should give you a large enough threat range and save you around 175 points per landraider left at home for better options.

@4M2A's recent list:

Lord is ok for theme.
Dreads are ok, but not great supporting elements.
Zerkers are ok in raiders (viking theme comes to mind). Though DP is not on a need basis for the Raiders, EA is good enough really.
But yea, Raiders are overly expensive taxis. Zerkers themselves are not 'that' durable.

Bikers break the theme.

So is replacing the LR with Rhinos a viable tactic? If not how should I deal with the problems I mentioned earlier.

I have made a 2000 point rhino list with the following:

Chaos lord - Daemon weapon, MoK, Melta Bombs#

2x Dual CCW dreadnoughts

4x 8 bezerkers
Skull champion with PF
Rhino
Extra armour

3x Predator
Lascannon Turret and sponsons

3 bikers
2 melta guns (not bothered about thee breaking the theme as I could see bezerkers using bikes to get close to the enemy faster and get the troops out of the tanks- screaming blood for the blood god while sitting and waiting for the enemy to come out of their tanks isn't so effective).

Is this any better? As I said I fear LR being destroyed by meltas and loosing a lot of points. A bigger concern is getting stuck in a game where my LR must come in reserves. This would really destroy the battle plan.

Think about attaching Kharn to one of the squads. He's a beast.