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So I read lately that it's generally advisable to take two predators. Not just to have redundancy, but because that's where they shine. Why is this so? I don't understand the tactical superiority that makes two the magic number.

It's a matter of survivability. One Predator tank is going to draw any fire that your opponent brought to the game with the purpose of killing tanks. Two predators will force your opponent to split fire, or fire at one at the expense of not shooting the other.

Also consider the build of the predators. Say you have two Dakka preds with heavy bolter sponsons. That's a potential six S6 shots each turn and maybe 2 S8 shots. That's a lot of hurt for the points cost and at decent range (or at least what seems to be typical range for an S6 weapon like the Heavy bolter). One not only draws all the fire for vehicles with AV13, but has to find a position where it can still shoot if it has the opportunity (if it's not stunned or weapon destroyed or you know, blown up). Two predators is another story. More options for positioning appear, not too mention you double the fire power and the survivability of the vehicles. Two predators cover more ground with fire power, and have a better chance of living to use it.

At least that's what I figure.

I take 3 preds with lascannon sponsors .... but only when playing blood angels .... fast preds= so nice. If just sm 1 or 2

Hmmm so I guess it really is about the redundancy. It just occurred to me that the predator is the only real tank that the Space Marines tend to field...

Force multipliers. One tank has a certain amount of resilience, and a certain amount of fire power. But its only one tank, can only target one unit, and can be worked around. Two tanks on the other hand, is 2x the durable hulls, and 2x the fire power, 2x targeting, and is much harder to hide from or deal with. Its also about threat saturation. Overwhelming your opponents ability to deal with a certain threat type. (be it absorbing losses or taking out your units)

Also, if your opponent has a specialized unit that is meant to take out AV 13+ tanks, like the pred, and he executes his plan well, if you only took the one, you know have a gap in your firepower types and range. If you have a second, your firepower is diminished, but you still have that threat type available. So his counter unit is going to have to work twice as hard, or he is going to have to bring twice as many if he wants to eliminate that threat type.

Two isn't exactly a magic number, but the difference from 1 pred to 2 is larger than the difference of 2 to 3. Its still a larger jump in power than would look on paper, but depending on points 2-3 is a good number to take.

2-3 preds, usually of the same type, is what your want for the above reasons. Of course this advice doesn't just work for preds, it works for pretty much any unit, except for counter units (who might not have enough targets to justify them in all comers lists).

What I've said is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope I was of some help.

Don't count out the Vindicator. I know, I overlooked that bad boy two when I first picked up my SM codex, but a Vindi is something to be feared. Sadly, people do fear them, rightly so. A large blast marker, S10, AP2 weapon is a beast in battle. I do however find Vindi's harder to use than Predators. They have a short range weapon, and it's a weapon easily disabled (guess what's the first thing to go with a weapon damaged result?). But I think that if the Vindicator is properly positioned and screened you can cause an enemy a lot of hurt. Vindicators work even better in numbers than predators, because they are probably the biggest fire magnet in the SM codex after Land Raiders (in my experience). They scare the pants of people and they get shot at... a lot. I tend to hold mine in reserves just so they don't take all the hits turn 1 if I can't get good cover. I roll them on later, hopefully after killing some enemy AA.

Hordes are especially fun. Let someone bring green tide. Bring two vindicators. Oh the fun you will have.

There are several tanks that do quite well when used in pairs or trios, and not so well when they are run solo.

In many cases it is a matter of those tank performing a role very well, and not having anything that will do so any better. What is the alternative to taking a second pred? Take a pred and a vindie? Sounds like a bit of a mismatch to me, but I am sure there are some advantages to cutting the odds and getting two completely different styles of weapon. BA are awesome because many tanks are fast moving and they have access to 6 preds if they like. 2 Baal preds, 2 Vindies, and perhaps a LR along with a handful of transports; that is likely what I would take if I were to start a BA list.

To why two is the magic number, you will just find that features of different tanks will become more practical when using them in pairs or trios. One pred will probably be best in center field, where it can have as many targets as possible. Two preds can run on the flanks of a table, providing cover for each other, and the rest of the army in between. AV13 is also quite awesome to form walls with, and you will want targeted weaponry (Pred) over template weaponry (Vindie) if you want to avoid blowing yourself up. Vindies don't make for good line backs until their weapons are destroyed and become otherwise useless in other respects.

So...
- They can provide each other with cover fire, and become more flexible in pairs.
- They won't blow your army up when shooting out of a wall formation.
- They can bring certain weapons to the field in a cheap way, making them a generally good choice for many lists.
- They create redundancy, automatically reducing the flexibility of some of your opponents decisions.
- They are cool models.

That last one doesn't matter.
There are a few more things, and others will hopefully go further, and include anything I have missed. They generally provide flexibility and take a bit away from your opponent, with little detriment to most lists in return.

I had always thought a taking 1-2 Predators and 1-2 Vindicators as my main force and a couple of Razorbacks with the Las Cannons to use in the old M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyer Tactics "Shoot and Scoot" form cover

Well I'm sold. I think I'll be dropping one of my three typhoons in the list I have in mind for another Dakka Pred.

+1 to what everyone has said so far

Dakka Predators are absurdly cheap for what they offer, the only downside being that they take a HS slot that you might want for something else. If you've got the slots, you can't go too far wrong with Dakka Preds.

I know this is a tad off topic, but it is a tank question.

I've heard that taking Leman Russ's as a squadron is a bad idea overall, but given what I read in this thread it seems that the IG Tank squadron would be a god send (excuse me, Emperor send). Or do the things discussed her not apply as much to the Leman Russ?

For the record, I field vanilla LR's with lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons.

Tank squadrons have some very serious drawbacks, but using two seperate LRs doesn't run into those problems, and would be a great example of tanks working well in duos.

Not sure if taking 3 of the same LRs would be worth it, but two AT fitted (and separate) tanks are usually a good addition to an IG force. 185 is expensive for an AT unit, but the tanks will support each other well, where sticking them in a squad together is most likely a bad thing in most situations. I would also suggest skipping those sponsons to save points, HB are pretty underwhelming for their points cost. HB happen to be a decent option (not a great one, besides the cost) for Predators specifically, among a few other units. 150 point tanks are expensive enough with only one upgrade, that battlecannon is a very expensive weapon.

Tank squadrons w/ template weaponry seems like a waste of points to me, I would prefer to throw the templates at separate targets.

LordofHats wrote:It's a matter of survivability. One Predator tank is going to draw any fire that your opponent brought to the game with the purpose of killing tanks. Two predators will force your opponent to split fire, or fire at one at the expense of not shooting the other.

Also consider the build of the predators. Say you have two Dakka preds with heavy bolter sponsons. That's a potential six S6 shots each turn and maybe 2 S8 shots. That's a lot of hurt for the points cost and at decent range (or at least what seems to be typical range for an S6 weapon like the Heavy bolter). One not only draws all the fire for vehicles with AV13, but has to find a position where it can still shoot if it has the opportunity (if it's not stunned or weapon destroyed or you know, blown up). Two predators is another story. More options for positioning appear, not too mention you double the fire power and the survivability of the vehicles. Two predators cover more ground with fire power, and have a better chance of living to use it.

At least that's what I figure.

Heavy Bolters are Str 5, and Autocannons are Str 7; how are you getting the +1 Str?

Wrexasaur wrote:
Tank squadrons w/ template weaponry seems like a waste of points to me, I would prefer to throw the templates at separate targets.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. I my local meta, at least, cover is very common. Smart players will spread out a bit, so combined with cover, multiple templates are rarely overkill.

However, I will agree that unsquadroned tanks are much more efficient than squadroned tanks. I specifically find that mobility is much better because they don't have to find space to move for multiple tanks, just one.