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Hey guys, I'm used to the whole "land raiders are just expensive cannon fodder."

well, I agree! they make excelent cannon fodder, if slightly too expensive.

now then, I've devised something for your average player.

The pro's and cons of heavy support tanks for SM.

Land raider GH
Pro:
juicy firepower
hardest to crack
discouraging for an enemy, no matter his skill.
decent troop capacity.
when destroyed, can create hupress (or, "nothing can stop me!")
can distract firepower for a couple points
Con:
tends to get wiped out before it can do any real damage.
Very pricey.
heavy bolter doesn't really go with the anti-tank lascannons.

Land raider Crusader
Pro
Massive amount of shots at full power, even though it is weaker.
can potentially wipe out entire squads.
excelent troop capacity.
weapon is well cenetered on it's anti-infantry role.
as above.
Con
Can have much difficulty doing damage to anything armoured or resilient.
very pricey.

Land raider redeemer
Pro
Potential for wiping out many infantry.
capable of doing damage to light tanks
can be very likely to take out full squads of powerful troopers.
good troop capacity
weapon is well centered around it's heavy-infantry killing capacity.
con
can have difficulty against hard armour, extreemly resilient troops and invo saves.
very pricey.

Predator (lascannons only):
Pro
dangerous tank killer.
decent armour
very capable against armour and heavy troops
con
pricey
can have difficulty against infantry. vulnerable on the sides and back.

Predator (Autocannon/heavy bolter)
good against small infantry squads
good against small squads of heavy infantry
decent armour
very capable against resilient enemies, and light armour.
cheap
Con
can have difficulty with tanks.
vulnerable to the sides and back.

Predator (heavy bolters and lascannon, or autocannon and lascannon)
can be okay against everything.
decent damage against everything
Cheap enough
con
no specialisation - capabilities reduced.

Whirlwind
pro:
Great infantry suppressor
capale against tightly capable infantry of weaker formations
cons
much difficulty against heavy troops and tanks.
vulnerable to attack of many kinds.

Vindicator
Pro:
excelent weapon.
capable against tight infantry columns, and heavy infantry.
good front armour
strongest weapon availible in ample supply.
cons
much difficulty when going head to head with other tanks.
can be wiped out before it does any damage
vulnerable to the sides and rear
poor range.

The real value of a Land Raider isn't so much in the weapons as in the ability to get something from Point A to Point B without it getting killed. Take Assault Terminators, for example. If they were to footslog, everything the enemy could throw at them would open fire, and most likely wipe them out before they do anything useful. Now, put them in a Land Raider of any kind and watch their survivability go through the roof. Considering that you have to have either melta or Str 9 to even be able to penetrate the LR (unless you've got something silly like wraith cannons), and considering the fact that cover saves are easy to get these days, you should be able to get the cargo to its destination pretty easily (throw in smoke launchers for good measure). And, even better, once the troops get out of the raider, there'll be TWO dangerous targets for your opponent to kill!

How exactly... are Land Raiders cannon fodders?

If your opponents have AT weaponry , expect the less AV tanks in ur army to die first.
or expect your LR to die to some melta shots ( a fodder need to be cheap and none consequencial which is neither )

If your opponent doesnt have AT weapons , well they arnt going to fire at LR anyways.

One reason I usually took one was because it made an awesome distraction. My opponent would pump round after round into it. while my other tanks would go through unharmed.

Lord 17c answered it for me.

luna, they are gneerally focussed on.

Having a 20ish inch assault range for my TH/SS Terminators is all the reason I need to field one. I play a shooty Space Marine army so it's nice to have a quick way to get some CC hurtin' to where it needs to be. I also like the fact that so many people only bring Autocannons and Melta Guns for AT which keeps my OR alive for a bit longer as the range on the melta is so short.

Monster Rain wrote:Having a 20ish inch assault range for my TH/SS Terminators is all the reason I need to field one. I play a shooty Space Marine army so it's nice to have a quick way to get some CC hurtin' to where it needs to be. I also like the fact that so many people only bring Autocannons and Melta Guns for AT which keeps my OR alive for a bit longer as the range on the melta is so short.

meltaguns are the reason i always had a unit of long fangs with lascannons, they were just awesome.

lord17c wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Having a 20ish inch assault range for my TH/SS Terminators is all the reason I need to field one. I play a shooty Space Marine army so it's nice to have a quick way to get some CC hurtin' to where it needs to be. I also like the fact that so many people only bring Autocannons and Melta Guns for AT which keeps my OR alive for a bit longer as the range on the melta is so short.

meltaguns are the reason i always had a unit of long fangs with lascannons, they were just awesome.

I use a squad of Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers to keep Rhino and Chimeras and Valkyries away from me, not to mention the lascannons on the LR! Unloading on a squad that just popped out of a wrecked transport with a Thunderfire Cannon is a beautiful thing.

unloading sounds sick.

These are the roles of the LR, in order of importance
* Protect the units inside
* Mobile cover
* Firepower

The mars pattern is designed to sit back on an objective. The other two are designed to move forward and deliver units, such as TH/SS termies.

LC are not anti-heavy tank firepower. They are great for medium AV and for MCs. In fact the MM you can put on one is a better anti-tank weapon. It's short range, which works because usually LRs are moving in close.

LRs are also big enough to use as mobile cover. You can use them to give obcurement to 2 rhinos/razorbacks behind them.

Captain Solon wrote:Lord 17c answered it for me.

luna, they are gneerally focussed on.

Hmmm, generally focused on by players that dont know better. A land raider has a scare factor to every new player, and still some to experienced players. The difference is, an experienced player has learned EXACTLY what to expect from them.

I play Orks, and its widely known that the boyz have a hell of a time popping LR. So I just ignore the damn things. After you focus on the REST of the army, its usually near the end of the game, so whats that LR going to do? Shoot at a unit or 2 before the end? Ive played games where I just ignored them entirely, and at the end they STILL had their cargo inside. Yes LR are tough, and can really hammer on things. Buts if you cant take them out effectively, they should be ignored.


I also agree that the way you compared the LR to the other tanks was a bit off. A LR is a hardcore transport first, and a weapons platform second. They are designed to get a unit untouched to where they need to be. So youd have to compare it to a razorback or rhino, where it comes out on top. Comparing it to a whirlwind or vindicator is just silly. Besides as far as payload goes, Id put my faith in a whirlwind/vindicator any day of the week over a LRs payload. Specially whirlwinds, man those are some FU tanks

Land Raider Redeemers have a hard time with high armor? Could have fooled me, I guess that multi-melta is just for show then?

You should only take one if you want to transport a bad mamma jamma assault unit, otherwise, you can get what you want for cheaper.

I use mine to transport 5 assault terminators with Lysander, and it works wonders.

20" assault is vital for keeping those marines intact, so, either have something worth it in there, or scrap it.

Alright, I am pretty spam happy when it come to vindicators...

-------------------------------

Vindicator
Pro:
excelent weapon. (yup)
capable against tight infantry columns, and heavy infantry. (yup, and tanks, S10 ord. is no wimp...)
good front armour (yup)
strongest weapon availible in ample supply. (yup)
cons
much difficulty when going head to head with other tanks. (WHAT? S10, highest of 2d6, scatter shouldn't be too much of a problem if you have multiple, or are fighting larger tanks)
can be wiped out before it does any damage (Multiple, and, y'know, all tanks can)
vulnerable to the sides and rear (you should more put this under predator )
poor range. (can be migitated by taking multiples, and spread them out)

----------------------------------------

Vindicators are lovely, I take three.

If you're taking less than two, don't, get another tank.

Rhinos flanking them, cost 70 points, and essentially gives the vindicator F/S/S 13 for the beginning of the game, or a 3+ save.

Vindicators have the single most destructive weapon against monoliths in the game. (Fun fact) Not AP1, though they still have ord. on their side.

Land raiders cry when they see vindicators.

I agree COMPLETELY with Inquisitor_Syphonious.

Seriously other than taking a super unit in a LR, what OTHER heavy support choice would be better then 3 vindicators?? Seriously a vindicator is only hindered by its short range, but that can be compensated by using other tactics that are already listed. They just HAMMER everything. I once saw a battle rep where a guy had to defend an objective in the corner of his table. And sure enough he had 3 Vindicators side by side protecting it.

He won because nothing could get past those Vindicators. They just punished what ever was left from the rest of his army shooting at them. Seriously if you arnt taking a super termie squad in a LR, put the points into Vindicators. Thats how I would play it if I played Space Marines.

Cracker, you can take a LR as a DT for 1 termie squad and take 3 vindis still.

In my Vulkan list I run a LRR w/MM for my termies. My HS slots are 2 Vindis and a LC/AC pred for some transport popping so the vindis can shoot those juicy scoring units.

Vindicators are IMHO, the best HS option for SM due to the reliable multiple roles it can be called upon to take on.

Well there ya go. This is one of those, I knew it could be a dedicated transport, but also forgot that it was

Even better, take all 4 of them then. 3 Vindis and a LR transport

The only real prob with the vindi is the short range. But if you combat squad the heavy weapons and take a pred, then you can take care of the long range AT while the vindis close in to take care of the the big stuff.

For CSM I like to take a squad of Berzerkers in a landraider. It can sit on an objective and score. If anything gets close then the Berzerkers are there as a counter. Same thing could work for BA & cheaper.

G

pdawg517 wrote:Cracker, you can take a LR as a DT for 1 termie squad and take 3 vindis still.

In my Vulkan list I run a LRR w/MM for my termies. My HS slots are 2 Vindis and a LC/AC pred for some transport popping so the vindis can shoot those juicy scoring units.

Vindicators are IMHO, the best HS option for SM due to the reliable multiple roles it can be called upon to take on.

Exactly what I do, 3 vindicators and a land raider with thundernators. I love it.

Land raiders with lascannons are a different tank, crusaders and redeemers have short range guns, though nothing on the land raider is encouraging you to charge...