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Ok, first post on Dakka. Hi everyone.

I need help to try to beat my friends Black templar army, It seems that they just get too close too quick and i find it difficult to kill them before they get to my squishy little guardsmen. I generaly whittle him down to a few guys but then they cut my infantry to shreds as soon as they charge (which is about standard for everyone except Tau) and he says his guys are alowed to consollidate into another combat so i cant shoot at him .

I'm not a rules lawyer so im not sure of this, and we argue about it incesantly which ruins games. We arent playing competitively at all and we usualy only play to 1000 or 1500 pnts. I dont have problems beating other marine armies or chaos marine armies or even another friend's black templar army so i'm not sure if its just he's a better player or what?

for reference in 1k i have: 1 LR MBT, CCS with lascannon, PCS with flamers, 2 inf squads in Chimeras, vet squad with 3 meltas in a chimera, storm trooper squad with power weapon, melta and plasma in a Vendetta.

Apreciate the help in advance

well first of all you cannot consolidate into another combat so that should help you greatly. 2nd since you aren't playing competively I can provide 2 suggetsions. 1 is more vanilla leman russes (battle cannons eat normal marines) and the other is to equip your CCS with plasma weapons in a chimera. My personal load out is CCS 3 plasma guns 1 plasma pistol and a medic in a chimera.

Also don't combine melta and plasma in the vet squad in the valk choose one or the other.


OH and WELCOME TO DAKKA!

as above

also consider vendettas if he is using a lot of land raiders.

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:he says his guys are alowed to consollidate into another combat

He isn't no matter how old his codex may be

Well, i thought it was a bit fishy that no other army but his could do that... but he's been playing for alot longer than me so i tend to take his word for it (shant be doing that again )

@dumplingman: I actualy pulled my other russ out of the listbecause he fields a couple of attack bikes with multimeltas and i didnt ever have enough cover to keep them both in, but i will try it again.

oh and the storm troopers are my little bit of tactical flexibility so they can take out a vehicle or his pesky 5-man plasma cannon squads if need be (i know everything should have a specific mission but they are actualy the one part of my army that realy work well, except when they or their transport scatter off the table )

but yeah, thanks so far

HoverBoy wrote:

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:he says his guys are alowed to consollidate into another combat

He isn't no matter how old his codex may be

Does he have a 5th ed rulebook? What he is doing was the total norm in 4th ed

He actualy doesnt own his own codex, he borows my other friend's codex to write his lists and uses my rulebook.

First, make him get his own codex and rulebook!

2nd, try using blobbed platoons for your troops, give them a commissar and give the commissar and sgts power weapons. A 30-man squad like this will eat a 5 man marine squad quickly and will usually take out a 10-man marine squad over a couple of turns.

One of my favorite nasty tricks for BTs is to use an 9-man (8 psykers) psyker battle squad and weaken resolve. Pick that one unit of his (non-fearless) that is closest to the table edge. Kill ONE guy (forces a Morale test to their special rules). Now cast Weaken Resolve on them. He has to take that Morale test on a LD 2. If he fails, he runs, simple as that. This lets you use most of your army on one unit to combat attrit it down to where it's useless while getting rid of whole units with a couple of shots and the PBS.

BT commanders have Rites of Battle, which cancels out Weaken Resolve, maybe.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240168.page

avantgarde wrote: BT commanders have Rites of Battle, which cancels out Weaken Resolve, maybe.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240168.page

Yep, I posted in that thread, and still hold the opinion that I posted on the first page.

"the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers....." Doesn't sound much like a "modifier, sounds like it's actually changing the stat line. Just my opinion.

As for the OP. Yeah, I tend to agree that the unit would be able to use Sicarius' leadership 10.

However, the INAT says otherwise:
IG.47D.03 – Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually modifies the unit‟s Ld for the entire player turn, so even if the unit utilizes the Ld characteristic from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

So if your group uses the INAT (as mine does), then it works. And if they say it doesn't work, no biggie, guess what your first target is? Yep, the unit containing the BT commander.

the 5-man squads arent the problem, its the full squads+Neophytes + Emperors champion or castelan w lightning claws ( he runs 2 squads one with EC and one with Castelan, so both fearless) which re-roll hits, so he will basicaly wipe out 20 / 30 guys on the charge, so I think BT are one army not to use blobs against.

as for the PBS i would if i could but i dont have the modles and i cant justify buying them, or at least not 9 of the damn things.

You might want to double check on both of those being Fearless outside of hth..........................

Well, I'm gunna play him on tuesday so I'll check then

This guy sounds like:

A) He's cheating

B) He doesn't read his codex

I'm leaning towards the former since the op said he's been playing a while.

The Castellan and the Champ don't give their squads fearless only the Chaplain does.

He's probably also not telling you he needs to take a target priority check at -1 Ld to fire at any enemy model that's not the closest. (Point to the BT FAQ if he tries to argue) So those 5 man heavy weapon squads are taking a Ld 8 test every time they want to fire past one of your units. So if you say place a Russ as the closest target, whenever he fails his Ld test (which should be about 30% of the time) he has to waste shots against the Russ. If you kill the Castellan it goes up to 42%.

The thing that gives my BT fits is an AP3 blast template. If you can get a demo charge or a Russ shot off on a Crusader squad after it's still bunched up from assault it'll gut the squad.

Well given what you have to work with, the best advice is to shoot one unit at a time until it's dead. The thing with Templars is that if they are not mounted in vehicles it is very easy to deal with them by shooting the unit that is biggest immediate threat and eliminate it entirely before moving onto the next target. If his army isn't as meched as yours, using deployment options is really what you should consider to not allow yourself to be "boxed in". I'd give the chimera to your Stormtroopers so they have the option to outflank. Then put the veterans in the Vendetta so they also have the option to outflank. I'd find the points to add an astropath and a demo charge to your list. It needs those IMHO.


Things to remember when playing BT:

1. They have to take a target priority test at a -1 to shoot past the nearest unit. Check the GW BT FAQ.

2. Righteous Zeal is a consolidation move as defined in the 5th edition rulebook. Unless accompanied by a chaplain, the Zeal move must be made towards the nearest visible enemy. Chaplain led squads can Zeal in any direction.

3. Many Templar players overlook this so this is key: If they take Accept the Challenge vow, they must assault if able to do so if they are in range. Many BT players forget this. Firing rapid fire weapons can stop this from happening, but who is taking rapid fire weapons in Templar squads these days?

4. Black Templars are only Fearless in close combat only, or always if lead by a chaplain. Grimaldus makes all units within 6" fearless...assuming you ever see that character on the table.

I didnt think anyone took target priority tests anymore, but i will read the FAQ.

It's a special BT rule that is actually in their codex, so they still get to do it.

Your friend seriously needs to read the rules for BT the EC cannot even join a squad he is always Independent.

infernus1986 wrote:Your friend seriously needs to read the rules for BT the EC cannot even join a squad he is always Independent.

Actually the rule states: "The emperor's champion always fights as an independent character and may never lead, join, or be attached to a command squad."

It only states he can't join command squads or be deployed with one. He does follow all normal independent character rules though and can join other squads.

You have 8k worth of BT? :(

Ok, wow, yeah. To reinforce what everyone else is saying: this guy is cheating, and cheating bad.

The big problem with footsloggin' BT is that we are sloooooooooooooooow.

Like, really slow.

If he took the Chappy + some Cenobytes, that means that he can move up to d6+3 inches toward you when you shoot him and he takes a wound. Note, he can only do this ONCE per your shooting phase.

Focus on one squad and shoot it to pieces before even trying to hit the other one. Also, we BT have terrible long range firepower, so use guerrilla tactics: shoot, then run. Repeat. We can't catch you, and we don't really have a lot to shoot you with either.

If you keep him at range, you can take him out before he hits your line.