Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've sold my old menoth army to move to Khador. Currently, the only peice I have is Karchev and im trying to decide what to buy. Ive done alot of research and picked up a faction deck, but still cant decide what to get. Here are my thoughts so far....

Decimator is awesome, but Karchevs UR only helps with his rip saw attack (still a consideration for sure though)
Devestator is ammazing and if im correct his special attack can be boosted by UR 18pow+7 on dice, plus 3 from UR (average 28 damage to base to base)
Marauder is a cool filler, i like it better than the juggernaut for sure
Spriggan seems great but idk how to play him (tips please)
Beast 09 is a god send !!!!! but high points and all
Behemoth i need some clarification on. Ive heard hes Karchevs wonder boy but why? unearthly rage doesnt improve his bombards right?

as for units and solos , of course battle mechanics war dog and Doom reavers+escort great, widowmakers considered

Id love some help making a 15 pt KARCHEV army out of these, but it needs to be able to grow into a 25 and eventually a 35 without wiping and starting fresh. Please any tips and suggestions based around using these pieces with Karchev.

I'm sure other people will chime in who have much more experience with Khador, but here's my 2 cents:

Devastator is awesome, but he's a bit of a one-trick pony. You'll love him for his nigh-indestructability while he's making his way up the field, and if he gets b2b with a bunch of models and does his rain of death...booyah. But once he opens up, he's vulnerable.

Beast 09 is...a beast. He's definitely worth the points, but if you're looking to do just a 15-pt list, might not be your best choice. Same with Behemoth, which I don't have any personal experience with but is quite expensive.

Spriggan can be awesome, especially if you're facing opponents that have stealth as he can fire flares. I faced a Retribution 15-pt force that had 4 models with stealth, and the Spriggan was my MVP thanks to the flares, and his powerful lance with reach. Though thanks to some bad dice rolls on my extra attacks on an assassination run, I (thankfully) had my Devastator nearby to finish off the warcaster.

Have you considered the Kodiak? Pathfinder, a low-focus jack(important for Karchev) and a great special attack. One of our best jacks.

Also at this lower points level, the Destroyer would be a great jack, especially if you want to get some shooting in as you move up the field. Are you

For units and solos: battle mechanics are definitely a good idea, doom reavers and widowmakers are awesome...but you won't have much room at 15 pts. Also, the war dog, while useful with Karchev, is probably least needed by him as he's a crazy jack/human hybrid. But if you have a point to fill, then by all means take him...though if you have room for 3 pts, the Ogrun Bokur is a better choice for a bodyguard for him.

So with Karchev at 15 pts, I'd say either run him with either two slightly more costly jacks, or him, two less expensive jacks, and a solo or two. If you're not running him with at least two jacks, you're really not using him to his full potential.

Are you open to other warjacks besides the ones you listed?

I have a lot of experience facing Kodiak's and Beast 09, and I hate them for what they do. I give those a thumbs up too

Devastator is decent with Karchev, although UR won't work with RoD, as it isn't a melee attack.

Spriggan is a great choice, as its reach allows you to pull off some trickier assassination runs, especially with Bulldoze and Tow to get him into a good position. The grenades and flares are gravy, although you'll see them used a lot more at higher point levels, where you've got ranged infantry to take advantage of the loss of stealth.

The Kodiak is a rather nice choice, being rather maneuverable due to Pathfinder and Heavy Boiler. The chain attack is also nice, what with UR virtually guaranteeing it. Vent Steam can be nice for killing off infantry that are attacking it, although it's unlikely to be much use offensively due to the small AoE.

The Behemoth is also nice, as he brings some much needed ranged support to a Karchev list, and his 2 armor piercing fists will typically be rolling 3 on against most enemy heavies. A bit pricey for 15 points, but still rather doable. Good synergy with the Spriggan and the Marauder as well, the first for its flares and the latter for the plethora of knocked down targets it'll provide for BigB's bombards.

As for jacks you didn't mention, the Berserker and Drago are both excellent choices. The free charge is always great in Karchev's generally focus-strapped list, and both have excellent chain attacks. While they do have a tendency to detonate when you load them up with Focus, this is easy to view as a good thing, as it not only deals another hit to your target (and anything else within 3 inches), but the lack of wreck marker clears the lane for a charge by your other jacks.

A few lists I've run with Karchev, with some success:

Karchev
Spriggan x2

Karchev
Beast-09
Drago
War Dog

Karchev
Behemoth
Marauder

Behemoth is awesome with karchev for a couple of reasons. Karchev can Tow the behemoth around the battlefield at 12in per round, allocate 4 focus to the behemoth's bombards. Being towed by karchev does not count as the behemoth moving, so he gains the bonus to atk. Double boosted to hit +2 with boosted power 14s with aoe is pretty good. Plus he will be very difficult to catch since almost not jack can catchit. You can very easily soften up your opponent with the behemoth's guns and then line up a HUGE charge from the behemoth. He can cover 19in I believe.

I run zerker behemoth and war dog for a 15pt list. war dog is really just there to prevent karchev from getting tangled while he makes his way around the enemy. Oh, and there is literally no jack that can stand up to the behemoth's power, not only because of the piercing fists, but also the fact that he can shoot other squads while he is meleeing a jack.

Can't allocate 4 to the bombards, as the sub can only hold 3. Also, you're forgetting to include the size of Karchev's base as well as the initial distance. With perfect positioning and a slingshot, you can move a 'jack a total of roughly 23.5 inches.

Ah, I wasnt sure if the bombards are counted as having a subsystem for each of them, thus allowing you to allocate each bombard 3, although in hindsight, that doesnt make a whole lot of sense I suppose.

Behemoth has never given me any trouble whatsoever... Angelius(with forced evolution) usually get's him off the field in one turn.

Laughing Man wrote:Devastator is decent with Karchev, although UR won't work with RoD, as it isn't a melee attack.

that sucks, i was really hoping it counted as a melee


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record I HATE the Kodiak an wouldnt play him and the zerkers are iffy too

Juggernaut09 wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Devastator is decent with Karchev, although UR won't work with RoD, as it isn't a melee attack.

that sucks, i was really hoping it counted as a melee


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record I HATE the Kodiak an wouldnt play him and the zerkers are iffy too

How so? :O

I was considering picking up a Khador side force to my Menoth lately, a Karchev tow list actually.

Karchev the Terrible
Behemoth
Sprigganx2
War dog
Widowmakers
Widowmaker Marksman

The list is really really sparse, But Karchev's 12" run turn one after casting Tow, your 10" deploy, and the roughly 1.5" you'll get off of the 'Jack's bases is, like Laughing Man said, that's 23.5". Given the range on the Grenade Launchers on the Spriggans and Behemoth's Bombard ranges you're shooting 4 grenades and 2 bombards in with three focus to give to something with your aiming bonus (because the models aren't moved, they are placed). That's a 33.5" threat range for the Spriggans and a 37.5" threat range for the Behemoth who will be ignoring intervening models. Plus there is three focus that can still be put into the Behemoth's Subcortex, people who don't know the list or what you're planning will be very surprised when they have Behemoth sitting right in front of them shooting their warcaster at +2 RAT and boosted hits and damage (shift those around as needed). The War Dog, Widowmakers and Widowmaker Marksman are kind of just there to take up the seven points left over.

Last I knew, you cant run a warcaster and cast a spell on the same turn. This means that Your first turn, you have to cast tow so that you can upkeep it and run the second turn.

I would be wary about running the three most expensive jacks khador has to offer with Karchev.You could try for a kodiak instead of one of those spriggans. This would allow the kodiak to operate away from the main group on the flanks with the widowmakers. Karchev's unearthly rage basically guarantees the kodiaks chain attack. You could move the kodiak in first, slam a jack into the warcaster, then charge the warcaster with the spriggan, basically instant death for the enemy caster.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose karchev's feat + unearthly rage basically negates his limited focus though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Juggernaut09 wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Devastator is decent with Karchev, although UR won't work with RoD, as it isn't a melee attack.

that sucks, i was really hoping it counted as a melee


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record I HATE the Kodiak an wouldnt play him and the zerkers are iffy too

??? I have had a good amount of success with both jacks. Kodiaks can wtf own other jacks with their chain attack. They can also wipe out infantry swarms, run for free etc etc. Pathfinder is niiiice to have on a heavy jack as well. I like running them on the flanks with man hunters, makes for a nice combo.

Berserkers can put down alot of jacks and warcasters alike. Sorscha feat + charging berserker with three focus can kill just about anything. You just add extra attacks, since they all are guaranteed to hit. Then, if for some bizarre reason the 5 huge pwr 18+ swings dont kill the caster, you might get the explosion to finish it off. They are very cheap for the amount of pain they can put out.

Last I knew, you cant run a warcaster and cast a spell on the same turn. This means that Your first turn, you have to cast tow so that you can upkeep it and run the second turn.

You are correct. Running does not allow spells.

skrulnik wrote:

Last I knew, you cant run a warcaster and cast a spell on the same turn. This means that Your first turn, you have to cast tow so that you can upkeep it and run the second turn.

You are correct. Running does not allow spells.

I thought you could cast spells before you ran. I also though spells weren't dependent on the actions your caster took, you have the focus- you can cast the spell.

No, but what you do is cast spells then charge something across the board, fail, and end Karchev's activation. You only lose effectively 1" and you still get your spell off.

Re-read the section on casting spells. It explicitly calls out running as preventing spells being cast.

Yes, that is doable.

12thRonin wrote:No, but what you do is cast spells then charge something across the board, fail, and end Karchev's activation. You only lose effectively 1" and you still get your spell off.

I have argued extensively on this idea with my friend, since it would basically give the Berzerker warjack the same ability as the kodiak. We had decided that it doesnt make sense as to why the piece would charge when the charge obviously will not succeed and thus, ruled that you cannot attempt a charge that is obviously going to fail. It is just silly. I prefer the warhammer method where you declare a charge and then measure if it will succeed. If it wont, your pieces just move forward their normal movement.

KingKodo wrote:

12thRonin wrote:No, but what you do is cast spells then charge something across the board, fail, and end Karchev's activation. You only lose effectively 1" and you still get your spell off.

I have argued extensively on this idea with my friend, since it would basically give the Berzerker warjack the same ability as the kodiak. We had decided that it doesnt make sense as to why the piece would charge when the charge obviously will not succeed and thus, ruled that you cannot attempt a charge that is obviously going to fail. It is just silly. I prefer the warhammer method where you declare a charge and then measure if it will succeed. If it wont, your pieces just move forward their normal movement.

I think the rules specifically state you can do this, declare a charge that won't make it to get a little extra movement out of something that can't run.

Typeline is correct. You can charge any model you choose, as long as you have line of sight to the target. The only restriction is that you MUST move in a direction that would take you into melee range of the target, assuming that you have an infinite movement and ignoring any intervening models that might prevent this.

Charging out of range models is a time honored tradition in Warmachine, along with attacking your own models for trivial bonuses and line of sight advantages.

Thing with charging is karchev wont be able to turn around with his Tow'd jacks. Equally you can just Trample (i think he is able to do this again)

But what you can do is run something of your own up the field. Charge to the side of it so you can turn karchev and plop down your spriggan on the side closest to enemy. Pop-feat and Unearthly rage and win game.

the Bulldoze ability makes spriggans pretty much the best jack in the game for Getting in there and kill stuff.

Also i would recommend taking the Karchev gunboat.

Karchev with Destroyers/Behemoth. depending on points.

Upkeep tow and just give out focus to boost and run around the board. you can always sit karchev over 14inches from enemy, bombarding, if anything is fast enough to run into your destroyers. Tow them away because its a placement they dont take freestrikes, then bombard them.

My friend did this and killed pSevvy on the 2nd turn of the game as sevvy went first and moved up and spent all focus lol.

@KingKodo: The warhammer rules are irrelevant here and your ruling is wrong. The rulebook specifically spells out that is perfectly fine and legal (p 46-47).

@Tarot: I often take widowmakers with pVlad solely for the purpose of once they have nothing left to shoot, they are free Wind Walls that I don't have to pay to cast.

I may just run Karchev with a Beast 09 and a Decimator for 15pts but im not sure

Seon wrote:Also i would recommend taking the Karchev gunboat.

Karchev with Destroyers/Behemoth. depending on points.

Upkeep tow and just give out focus to boost and run around the board. you can always sit karchev over 14inches from enemy, bombarding, if anything is fast enough to run into your destroyers. Tow them away because its a placement they dont take freestrikes, then bombard them.

This is a great idea. I never thought of an all ranged strategy with Karchev, but it looks good given that the models are placed and not moved. But I think Behemoth and multiple Destroyers isn't the most optimal here. Something more like this.

Karchev the Terrible
Behemoth
Destroyer
Spriggan
War dog
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios

Turn 1 Karchev casts Tow and Sidearms and charges up with the Jacks. Turn 2 you upkeep the spells, allocate focus and choose +2 move and Pathfinder and just run all over the board. They all have +3 Def that way, well as long as no one moves out of full fire formation and if anything gets too close, stop upkeeping Sidearms and charge in with the Spriggan while continuing goin' to town on everything with Behemoth/Destroyer. And if anyone tries advancing on you with stealth, thinking your templates will drift far enough to not matter, make them perfect hits with the Spriggan's Targeting Flare. Not to mention that Karchev can close the distance too and use his feat and ground zero to clear a path to finish the assassination run. I only put Eiryss in there to force people to react to her. My play group overreacts to her a bit more than usual, myself included.

Out of curiousity and list ideas I've seen, why would you run Karchev with the Destroyer/Behemoth combo over pVlad for S&P bombardments?

12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity and list ideas I've seen, why would you run Karchev with the Destroyer/Behemoth combo over pVlad for S&P bombardments?

Karchev is cooler.

And.. the two lists would play very differently. Karchev tows dudes around and doesn't afraid of everything. It's not like a lot of lists people will have played before. I'm more used to protecting my warcaster because he is made of glass and tripping (pKreoss), while I'd like to play this Karchev list because he runs around the table all willy nilly with his back to his enemy while his 'Jacks lay down some serious fire power. He can also pretty safely mingle in melee with a lot of stuff too.

Problem with sidearms is that it is also an upkeep on karchev so you can't have both at once.

Upkeeping Tow gives you more focus efficiency for boosting bombards And the enhanced mobility needed to keep your jacks alive. Def 13 jacks is cool but not that great. Aslong as you prioritize your targets well. You could take out enemy ranged threats then just play around.
Also with tow the destroyers can gain the aiming bonus for not moving

Change the list around however you feel tbh i would just have 2 destroyers and a spriggan. Gunboat untill the enemy is soft enough then just break through with the spriggan.

But i don't actually play khador ^_^

pVlad doesn't have the mobility to place his Guns where they can be most effective and/or to keep them out of range from threats.
pVlad also easier to kill.

Its just a different way to play the game.

12thRonin wrote:@KingKodo: The warhammer rules are irrelevant here and your ruling is wrong. The rulebook specifically spells out that is perfectly fine and legal (p 46-47).

@Tarot: I often take widowmakers with pVlad solely for the purpose of once they have nothing left to shoot, they are free Wind Walls that I don't have to pay to cast.

I didnt make a ruling, we just didnt see the sense in it. I was simply stating how a similar game handles it, not saying that "Since warhammer does it this way, warmachine has to do it that way also"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can you cast multiple upkeep spells on the same target? I wasnt sure if it was that you cant actually cast multiple upkeep spells or if you just cant Upkeep multiple spells on the same target.

KingKodo wrote:
Can you cast multiple upkeep spells on the same target? I wasnt sure if it was that you cant actually cast multiple upkeep spells or if you just cant Upkeep multiple spells on the same target.

No, you cannot. One friendly and one enemy upkeep spell per model/unit. Once another is cast, the previous immediatley expires.

12thRonin wrote:@Tarot: I often take widowmakers with pVlad solely for the purpose of once they have nothing left to shoot, they are free Wind Walls that I don't have to pay to cast.

Assuming you're referring to Blood Boon, keep in mind that it only takes effect when destroying ENEMY models.