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So, after seeing the carnage caused by Dash's burna wagons I've used them a few times now to great burnination.

In my last game I clipped about 5 models out of one of my opponents boys squads and he was disbelieving that I had just caused 75 hits on the unit. He reasonably tried to find rules to defend himself but at the time was unable to come up with anything.

Just today he approached me and said he had spoken with a Games Workshop employee and article writer (I don't remember the name now but I can get if I ask). He pointed out the text on page 29 of the rule book. "Wounds inflicted by the template weapons do not have to be allocated on the models actually covered by the template, but can be put onto any model in the unit." He focused on the "do not have to be" and took this to mean (and said he had been reassured by the games workshop employee) that he didn’t have to put any of the wounds caused on those five models onto anyone else in the unit unless he felt like it. If I happened to catch a nob or HQ of course he could still put the wounds elsewhere.

I feel that the hits from the flamer are distributed as per normal shooting hits. Which is to say that for a unit with primarily the same characteristics one model should be removed for each unsaved wound (as per page 20) or that the wounds should be distributed as per the complex units entry on pg 25 if things are more complicated. Specifically in this second reference, "the player must allocate one wound to each model in the target unit ... once all the models in the target unit have one wound allocated to them the process is repeated...,until all wounds from the firing unit have been allocated".

A clear example of this with a non-template weapon would be firing at a single model visible in a unit and scoring multiple wounds. The wounds are distributed as above among the unit, not just stacked on the one guy who is visible. I don't see any rule to support template weapons being any different.

Do you guys think I'm missing anything? If possible please provide references with your opinion so that I can say more than "the guys on dakka said so". Thanks.

Your opponent is talking complete rubbish.

Wounds caused by Template weapons follow the normal wound allocation rules. What that rule is doing is the complete opposite of what he thinks it does. That rule reminds you that the models under the template are not the only ones that are hit, like it was in previous editions.

"Can" is not the same as "May".

And in all fairness "The people on Dakka who actually know the rules well said so" is actually better than "Some guy who was hired to sell models to 11 year olds said so".

No, hes wrong.

For one what a gw redshirt says has no validity whatsoever.

pg 29. statement is saying that it follows wound allocation rules, and that you cant template snipe certain models.

You are correct, for the reasons you stated.

The only exception Template weapons have to the shooting rules are listed in the section for template weapons.

Your opponent does not have to allocate the wounds to models under the template, but he does have to allocate the wounds to the targeted unit. That may involve allocating hits to the units under the template-but it does not have to.

Editing to add:
Too slow by two.

Ninja'd x3

Was your opponent saying that he could put all the wounds on only the guys under the template or that he could stack the wounds onto different models? Either way he'd be wrong. The quote he pointed out simply explains that the wounds get distributed to the whole unit, not just the ones under the template. In which case, you'd follow the normal rules as no other rules supplant them.

I don't know what to quote since you already know the sections. Your opponent's interpretation seems to be based on a misreading. How can he be allowed to distribute wounds in any way other than what is stated? He can't.

Also, how does this burnalishious weapon work? 75 hits from 5 models under the template?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Took waaaay too much time typing. Ninja'd X4

15 flamethrowers in an opentopped battle wagon.

Open topped = all can measure from a single point, so if you hit x models with the template you then multiply it by fifteen, for the number of burnas.

Wow, that's nasty. Seems kind of dangerous and illogical to stick 15 flamers out of a single fire point, but then again, they are orks.

Well, Gwar!, it's more a case of the rules guys on dakka having considerably more tournament experience on average and spend an eternity discussing the rules, while the red shirt knows sufficient to settle conflicts in store. Who knows, some of them might actually spend their spare time discussing on forums and may actually be competent.

Regardless, written judgment is better, since you don't get it confused on the way home and can actually show the exact wording.

Fiend wrote:Wow, that's nasty. Seems kind of dangerous and illogical to stick 15 flamers out of a single fire point, but then again, they are orks.

You're thinking about it too matter-of-factly. It's not that they actually fire 15 from that single spot; it's that the template rules say that you MUST hit as many models as possible with the weapon. So once you find that spot from the hull, it's just a shortcut to multiply by 15.

And yes, it's nasty as hell. I run it all the time and that wagon becomes much the priority target.

Fiend wrote:Wow, that's nasty. Seems kind of dangerous and illogical to stick 15 flamers out of a single fire point, but then again, they are orks.

It's open-topped, there's no firepoint. They can fire from any point on the hull and are required to hit as many enemies as possible so they must all be on the same spot.

If it was an enclosed battlewagon then only five can fire - two on each side and one out the back!

I understand the rules. I just thought it comical to have this wide open wagon and yet all 15 burna orks are jostling and firing their flamers at the same location. Dem silly boyz can't wait der turnz.

Well yea, if they get to the party too late, everyone will be done doin "the burny dance" and then what fun is it?

I agree it's a bit counter-intuitive. On the other hand, is it any different than five guys firing from the same spot on the chimera hatch?

The rules explicitly say lay 1 flamer template and hit the most models possible and multiply by the number of shots.

If they meant only models under the template can be wounded and removed then they would either have templates resolved individually or allow you to shoot from various hatches to cover the most models as possible.

The guy is just wrong... Hits are resolved on the unit, not just people under the template. It is as clear as day in the rulebook.

Scott-S6 wrote:I agree it's a bit counter-intuitive. On the other hand, is it any different than five guys firing from the same spot on the chimera hatch?

Only one guy does the shooting:

"Jenkins, go hang out of the hatch and kill those orks!"
"How will I do that sir? I only have two shots per turn!"
"Take everybodies lasguns with you; if anyone asks, we're shooting them, you're just holding them for us."

S_P

So what about blast templates... if you were to lauch from a manticore with two templates and combined five enemy guys are hit does that means any five take the wounds or the five under the template.

From above its any five, correct?

if they all hit the same location, yeah. Most likely some will scatter.

Any 5 can be removed.

And if the realism of triple-stranded part-fungus asexual alien warriors all firing from the same point on their vehicle bothers you, think of it this way:

All 15 of them spray promethium all over the enemy, and one throws a cigar.

Da Butcha wrote:And if the realism of triple-stranded part-fungus asexual alien warriors all firing from the same point on their vehicle bothers you, think of it this way:

All 15 of them spray promethium all over the enemy, and one throws a cigar.

If there was a ork handbook on how to use a burna - this would be rule #1! Although it is just as likely that the other 14 boys throw the cigar having ork into the promethium to start the fire - he should have brought enough to share with them all.

Vrakk wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:And if the realism of triple-stranded part-fungus asexual alien warriors all firing from the same point on their vehicle bothers you, think of it this way:

All 15 of them spray promethium all over the enemy, and one throws a cigar.

If there was a ork handbook on how to use a burna - this would be rule #1! Although it is just as likely that the other 14 boys throw the cigar having ork into the promethium to start the fire - he should have brought enough to share with them all.

Nah, they threw him in so they could enjoy one more contestant in their impromptu, Burny Dance contest.

"Welcome Burny Nation THIS is The Flaming Idol!"

I would put money on the ork winning - because part of his dance would be to slug somebody in the head even though he is on fire.