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started reading the WHFB BRB. (bought for me as a present.) And I've just realised some of the most interesting rules, that make me go 'hey, why doesn't that happen in 40k.'

My main is the 'Panic' by annihilation.

I really can't see 3 squads of guard sitting there, watching an entire squad killed by a whirlwind strike.

so, if a squad of over 50% total squad strength (5 in 10 man, 15 in 30 man) is killed by one squad/tank. (such as a Tac squad, or a LR crusader and the squad was the one to annihilate them while at at least 50% S.) every squad within D6" takes a morale test.

now, for some solon variation.

Either we could stick with the simple leadership test/fall back
or, the other choice is
or, you could change it. maybe they just loose their cool watching so much firepower brought to bear that they take cover - becomming pinned.

Thoughts?

PS: I realise that this idea is a bit stupid, but, it makes battle/physical laws of combat sense, and from my playtesting, it works well!

Playtesting:

2nd idea worked the best.

That would only really matter when you're using Guard and such.

Kinda just a way to weaken them personally, because every other army has rather high LD

Nonetheless it's a good idea, but doesn't matter as much in 40k, where leadership values are naturally higher.

well.. not really!

space marine would be disheartened to see 10% of their company annihilated by a single foccused attack, simmilarily, eldar and tau would be disenheartened.

maybe not GK or special sauce (chaos) would need this, and orks would definatley have the ohshi- response!

(I feel for orks numbering 10+, they should be forced to take it regardless of their LD-lessness.)

Captain Solon wrote:well.. not really!

space marine would be disheartened to see 10% of their company annihilated by a single foccused attack, simmilarily, eldar and tau would be disenheartened.

maybe not GK or special sauce (chaos) would need this, and orks would definatley have the ohshi- response!

(I feel for orks numbering 10+, they should be forced to take it regardless of their LD-lessness.)

Actually, if 10% of his company got annihilated then I think the word you would be looking for is "enraged!"

For certain armies I could see it work, but for others like Marines, Chaos and Eldar I just can't see it as its just doesn't fit with the background of said armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why not, instead of forcing a moral check, modify the leadership value of the whole army for the remainde of the game?

wait.
if I have 21 choices, and 10 die, then every model would have Ld 0.

What this does mostly is weaken Guard Gunlines, Its a nice idea but most armies have exceptionally high leadership or are fearless. It isn't really fair to stop a gunline from shooting at you as it makes it easier to get to CC and therefore win. So I have to say again nice idea but unbalenced

Captain Solon wrote:wait.
if I have 21 choices, and 10 die, then every model would have Ld 0.

Re-read what I actually wrote ... I suggested a modifier to the entire army, nothing more, it was left open for you to decide what that modifer could be and how it would affect the army.

So for clarity, and using your example above, my own personal example would be ...

You have 21 choices and 10 die in a single shooting phase and because thats 10% destroyed in a single phase the entire army suffers from PANIC and each squad still remaining suffers a -2 modifer to its leadership. Next game turn your remaining 11 choices suffer 3 more destroyed squads and because thats 10% of the remaining choices they suffer PANIC again and their leadership is reduced by another -2.

What this would mean is if at any time during a squad is called upon to take a leadership or morale test they will do so using the modified value and will be more prone to failing if they suffer Multiply PANIC tests. The modifier is also constant throughout the game and acculmilative.

That was my idea, if you don't like it I have plenty more useless ones


The reason I'd recommend using Leadership value's is that it will spread more evenly accross all Armies and wil laffect them all the same way. Modifier can easily be made larger or smaller to reflect what you think is appropriate level of PANIC caused

EDIT: post edited to remove unwarrented snippyness and correction of tone

sorry. I assumed one for every squad.
forgiveness, I beg.

the rule is supposed to be for squads literally seeing their guys ripped to bits. if we give entire armies the penalty, it's a bastardization of the rule. it's only supposed to be within 6" of the squad.

Ah, I originally read it to mean the whole army and not 6" hence my overboard suggestion.

In one sense it seems more feasible that squads further away from the anihilated squad (ie, over 6") would not be affected as the human mind especially has a strange way of distancing themselves from something horrid when they themselves do not feel directly threatened, the common belief of "it won't happen to me" unless of course the object causing the anihilation happens to be moving upon their position next.

Will also just throw into the mix, the rule for Tau Ethereals, when killed any TAU models are forced to take a morale test and if passed gain prefered enemy rule. Just throw that out there for a possible addition as well as sparking a further idea to your existing ruleset

well.. how about 'for the next turn, if their morale holds, they fight on all the harder to get revenge for their fallen comerades.'

Roll a D6 for each of the squads affected.

on a...
1, nothing happens.
2,3 the squad gets prefferred enemy or tank hunters (depending on what unit it was that did the annihilation)
on a 4,5 they get relentless, and on a six, they get relentless and PE/TH

I think it's a lot of book keeping to keep track of various special rules that are applied to individual units or modifiers to specific squads' Ld. I think the spirit of concept is great and makes sense in a combat simulation, but 40k really isn't combat sim. If you're going to do it, though, I like the idea of pinning nearby squads when a unit within 6" suffers 50% casualties, probably the easiest to handle and already has a framework of rules.

The example of Tau gaining Preferred Enemy when their Etherial bites it is another case of working within the framework of the rules. They didn't make up something new, just added conditions as to when the USR went into effect. I'd keep randomness to a minimum. HellsGuardian316 had a great recommendation to reduce the army's Ld, or specifically apply a negative modifier to their Ld (remember, they're not the same thing), but this is gamebreaking for armies with a mediocre Ld. It's true that combat reactions run the gamut from paralysis to berserk rage, but keeping things simple is just as important as keeping them real.

How about something like this?

When a unit suffers 50% or more casualties from a single shooting attack, units within 6" must make a Ld test as though it had suffered 25% casualties itself. If a double 1 is rolled, the squad gains Preferred Enemy; if a double 6 is rolled, the squad gains Rage and instead moves directly towards the closest visible enemy instead of retreating towards their table edge.

sounds good, but the squad is supposed to be annihilated. thats the basis of the rule, and what makes it ComSim

I think it would work for space marines.

If they saw another squad be annihilated they would use combat tactics to make a 'tactical retreat' like they always seem to do in combat

Captain Solon wrote:

so, if a unit of over 50% original unit strength (5 in 10 man, 15 in 30 man) is killed by a single enemy unit. (such as a Tac squad, or a LR crusader and the unit was the one to annihilate them while at at least 50% S.) every unit (with some exceptions) within D6" takes a morale check.

My edits are in bold and they are only to make the actual wording more in line with 5th edition rules.

This sounds like it could work, but I would say instead of making it a predetermined outcome, either one of two things should be considered.

Option A:

If the "Panic" occurs during the Assault phase, units that fail their LD test suffer a "Fall Back"

If the "Panic" occurs during the Shooting phase, units that fail their LD test are "Pinned"

or

Option B:

If a unit fails its "Panic" Moral Check, the controlling player of that unit may choose to have the unit "Fall Back" as normal, or become "Pinned"

Obviously, Option B is much more forgiving, but in the same light, Option B shows that while the unit is flustered by their lost comrades, they still have a bit of training to deal with a "panic attack" (aka, the troops would know when it would be best to hit the ground or high tail it out of there)

Also, as a balancing factor (as well as a bit o' realism, pardon my blasphemy) for the fact that things such as Fearless and Calgar's rule exist, if a unit rolls double 1s on its "Panic" LD Test, it instead gains "Vengence" which then may either immediately make a shooting attack against the unit (or units) that wiped out their friends, or make an assault move into base contact with the enemy model (or models) ignoring difficult (but NOT dangerous) terrain and in the NEXT assault phase gain all of the benefits for charging (+1 attack, and any special rules they may have), units which make an assault move count as being in close combat (for the purposes of being the target of any remaining shooting, if there is any)." Alternatively, a unit that rolls Double 1s may choose to do neither of these above options. (Why you would not choose either, I have no idea, but it should be an option.)

Casualties suffered by any means other then targeted shooting attacks or close combat wounds do NOT cause "Panic" (For example, units embarked on a transport that explodes, units wounded by an exploding vehicle, units lost via Deep Strike Mishap, losses suffered from Dangerous Terrain tests, losses from certain special abilities ((THAT ARE NOT COUNTED AS SHOOTING ATTACKS, SUCH AS GIFT OF CHAOS)) etc)

Vehicles cannot suffer "Panic" and do not cause "Panic" with the execption of Vehicle Squadrons (Squadrons reduced to 1 model do not cause "Panic" when they are destroyed)

Independant Characters not joined to a unit never suffer from "Panic" but cause "Panic" when killed (Not when reduced to 50% of their wounds). Independant Characters joined to a unit suffer Panic as normal, if a unit is not fearless, but the IC is, the IC may still suffer from "Panic" (Assuming the test is failed).

If a unit is falling back BEFORE a Panic Check is made, they may fall back an additional 2d6 but MAY NOT become "Pinned" due to "Panic".

Units already in close combat are immune to "Panic" but may still cause "Panic" as normal.

Under no circumstances will a "Panic" check cause "No Retreat" wounds.

Models Embarked on Transports are immune to "Panic" but may still cause "Panic" as normal.

When Dealing with Multi-Wound models in units, the 50% applies to MODEL COUNT not WOUND COUNT.

When Dealing with ICs, if the Unit is reduced to ONLY the IC remaining, they unit would "Cause Panic" as normal. The IC would NOT be immune to this Panic Check as normal. (This counts for Retinues, Body Guards, etc).

Dedicated Transports, even in squadrons, will NEVER cause or suffer panic.

Clarification of Terms:

Causeing Panic: If you are a unit that is at/above half strength(as described above) and you are destroyed by a single unit in a single phase (as described above) you "Cause Panic".

Suffering Panic: If you are within D6" of a unit that "Causes Panic" and you are able to take a Moral Check, you "Suffer Panic" (NOTE: units that Automatically PASS morale checks do not count as "Suffering Panic", units that Automatically FAIL morale checks DO count as "Suffering Panic", units that can choose to Pass or Fail their morale checks DO count as "Suffering Panic".)

Immune to Panic: Units that Are IMMUNE to "Panic" are incapable of "Suffering Panic" but may be still able to "Cause Panic"

Vengence: Vengence may ONLY be gained by an UNMODIFIED Panic Check of 2 (two 1s). Models that Automattically Pass/Fail or that may Choose to Pass/Fail their morale checks may never gain Vengence (Unless they are an Independant Character joined to a unit that rolled Double 1s on its Panic Check)

Comments? Suggestions? Questions?

I'm looking forward to playtesting this a bit,

~DAR

my only problem with this is that it will be just another reason for everyone to mech up even mroe than they already do.

I say this alot in this section, but 3rd had a similiar rule. If unit was falling back, and ran through a friendly unit, then the new unit would ahve to make a moral tet or fall back.

It is way to powerful. For gun lines, you can have your whole army falling back in one turn.

Just keep as many numbers as possible to absolutes. Avoid making tests at D6" or similar. Oh, and never forget that armies with units that have leadership improving rules (Orks or Space Marines) would be favoured by this, while armies without them (primarily IG, but also both kinds of Eldar and Tau) would be disfavoured. Translated, armies like Space Marines simply wouldn't pay enough per troop compared to for instance Tau who on the other hand would pay too much.

dumplingman wrote:my only problem with this is that it will be just another reason for everyone to mech up even mroe than they already do.

Then let's have the pilots/drivers be affected by morale!

If 1 squad amongst a dozen is destroyed...so what? The rest have safety in numbers.

Too complex to properly apply on a broad scale.

Fair enough.

Thanks for the opinions.

thanks, Daemon.

Che-Vito wrote:If 1 squad amongst a dozen is destroyed...so what? The rest have safety in numbers.

Too complex to properly apply on a broad scale.

It's actually not a complex idea or rule at all, if you write it to be simple.

If a unit which isn't fleeing is wiped out by shooting in a single turn, every squad within 6" of any member of the destroyed squad must take a leadership test or flee.

Note that you mustn't remove any models from the board until all shooting is done for this purpose. A slightly kinder version is that the unit must be wiped out by a single unit's shooting instead of a whole turn. Also, keep in mind that the suggestion is not for the entire army, it's for the units closest to the troops destroyed.

The only real problem is that WH40k doesn't support massive impact of morale checks, while fantasy battle is in some cases all about breaking the enemy morale. Thus, you run into problems of empowering certain armies and removing power from others - which is the only real problem with this rule.