Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, just got a wicked Valkyrie (photos in gallery) but I have a few questions before its debut...
I was reading an Older (and very heated) forum post on Valks, and I've look at the GW faq and the INAT faq.. but nothing answers my question...
maybe i'm stepping out of my league in this, and it's probably been discussed elsewhere, but can I just switch heights after making a move in the movement phase?
It's been mentioned several models come with variable bases.. so this does express a range of vertical movement..
I.e. measure from "on flying stand position" to "detached from fs now on landing gear" position but still in exact same footprint.
As long as the distance moved is the same as what is allowed, NOT for example to moving 24 then dropping 6.. but from (on flying base) "high" tip of hull to (new position off flying base) "low" tip of hull to a maximum of {24 flat out} inches.
I mean, Going low to avoid LOS, allow embark/disembark and contesting of obj's, whilst sacrificing all the LoS of being high up, and going high up to sacrifice all the others.. Doesn't it balance out? And make things alot simpler for RAW whilst we're at it?

INAT states that if immobilized, other models can fight and move around/under the wings within limitations, so if it can involuntarily get into such a low position, and have game rules allowing the game to go on around it, why can't I choose to put it there?

A VTOL ASSAULT carrier with no V movement seems a little absurd.

SUMMARY: Can i, if measuring completely legally and in 3d terms, effectively land my valk for transport embark/disembark and obj contesting purposes, by detaching the flying stick and placing the model in the exact same position on the exact same base at the end of its move in the movement phase, thus changing vertical and physical position until my next movement phase?

You can't do that...

Because the rulebook says you're not allowed to remove the model from it's flight stand unless you are told to. Like when it's immobilized or wrecked.

The Green Git wrote:You can't do that...

Because the rulebook says you're not allowed to remove the model from it's flight stand unless you are told to. Like when it's immobilized or wrecked.

The rulebook also says that you have to glue the model to its base. Unless you are snapping off the stick, you didn't glue it, so it's not a legal model.

RaW, skimmers are never removed from their bases when immobile.

@kanelom: You cannot remove it from it's base at any point during the game.

As above.

Not only are you not given permission to do so, and this is a game ruleset entirely based around what you can do, you are expresely prohibited from doing so until told.

Although hilariously you cant even remove it from the stand when immoblised, as you are required to glue models to their bases....

noones removing it from base, just dropping it from its flying stand.. still on base.

Little rule book in front of me, p71 Skimmers-

Measuring distances
"the skimmers base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting it.."

Moving
..."A skimmer must be set set down on the table at the end of it's move - it cannot be left hovering in mid air!"

Shooting at Skimmers
If a Skimmer is immobilized or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible (the base MAY have been glued in place for example)


Granted, it does say at the end of this passage
"Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions."

So if the flying stand is not removed, but replaced with a shorter one, the RAW is not being broken and is infact following it closer because of "not being able to hover in mid air."?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
that is sorry, replaced at the end of the movement phase..
Or for example one had an adjustable flying base. Nothing is being removed?

kanelom wrote:Or for example one had an adjustable flying base. Nothing is being removed?

Where does it say in the rulebook you can adjust it?

Yeah; Gwar you've gotten a bit confused in your recollection of the rules. In fact I'm gonna coin your phrase "show us where it says you HAVE to glue the model to the stand."


If you check the skimmers page, it will tell you should remove the model from its base if it has been wrecked or immobilized. It DOES make reference that this is not "important" if the stand has been glued on, and it was fluffed that the idea is the burning vehicles anti-grav system is still running but unresponsive so it can not be moved by choice.


Kanelom; you can't swap out the stand for a shorter or taller one with out your opponents consent. This falls back to basing rules and "using the base the model comes with."

Unless the vehicle has a specific rule that allows it to land ((ie. Tau landing gear)) it is not to be removed from its base until it is wrecked or immobilized. OR you're playing planetstrike and have the landing pad, but then that's a whole different mess of rules to get into.

Basically if you're playing your vendetta and you get immobilized, you gotta ask if its in your interest to drop the valk; you might get cover from outside your firing lane, but you might loose that much needed LoS for your next turn. But as far as I know you can only make the decision as soon as the result has ben determined.

If its wrecked and you can take it off the base, I would and do because it helps to nulify "no go" zones and the dangerous terain of a wrecked vehicle and not having to stand up over the table to look straight down to see if someone should be passing a test or not.

@Gwar, Show me where it says i cant adjust my flying base between the original height and the not hovering GW RAW end of movement landed height?

@Dracheous, I think my opponent is going to be ok with the Vendetta being at full height or at base height, as long as it is done as part of the completion of the move in the movement phase.

Think live fire heli insertions viet nam style.

If your opponent agrees to the changes to the base SUPPLIED with the model; then you are good to go and do what you two agree on for this idea.

But you do HAVE to use the base that COMES with the model; that much I know is stipulated in the rules. I do apologize for not having a page handy for where that is, but it has been the decussion of many threads of late ((specially because people want to use larger bases for doing scenic models))

Models must be glued to their bases.

Models must be used with the bases they are supplied with.

So if a Valk is glued to the flying base it came with, how can you modify that mid-game? And what rules says you can because there are two rules that say you can't.

Any modifications to the 'base a model came with' require opponents consent and if you are modeling for advantage then the opponent has every right to say 'you can't do that, I do not approve.'

Dracheous wrote:Yeah; Gwar you've gotten a bit confused in your recollection of the rules. In fact I'm gonna coin your phrase "show us where it says you HAVE to glue the model to the stand."

Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, Page 3, Chapter "Models & Units", Subheading "Models", Sub-Subheading "Bases". ISBN 978-1841548753, Product Code: 60 04 01 99 020

Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

kanelom wrote:@Gwar, Show me where it says i cant adjust my flying base between the original height and the not hovering GW RAW end of movement landed height.

Show me where it says I can't smash your models with a hammer when they die.

The rules tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't. If it doesn't say you can, you cannot.

Gwar! wrote:

Dracheous wrote:Yeah; Gwar you've gotten a bit confused in your recollection of the rules. In fact I'm gonna coin your phrase "show us where it says you HAVE to glue the model to the stand."

Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, Page 3, Chapter "Models & Units", Subheading "Models", Sub-Subheading "Bases". ISBN 978-1841548753, Product Code: 60 04 01 99 020

Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

.

And yet I CAN still remove the base from a skimmer as per rules pg. 71 if immobilized or wrecked with out the model being illegal. Not to mention; try transporting a Valk with a glued on base.

kanelom wrote:@Gwar, Show me where it says i cant adjust my flying base between the original height and the not hovering GW RAW end of movement landed height?

Quote this alleged RAW please.

The skimmer rules appear to be an exception to gluing the model to the base, as you are directed on page 71 to remove the model from its base if it is immobilized or wrecked.

I would call trying to change base heights during a game, other than above, a clear example of modeling for advantage.

Homer

try transporting a Valk with a glued on base.

RAW cares not about your transporting issues.

Homer S wrote:The skimmer rules appear to be an exception to gluing the model to the base, as you are directed on page 71 to remove the model from its base if it is immobilized or wrecked.

"if possible"
Which it is not if you have followed the previous rules.

/shrug

Gwar! wrote:

Dracheous wrote:Yeah; Gwar you've gotten a bit confused in your recollection of the rules. In fact I'm gonna coin your phrase "show us where it says you HAVE to glue the model to the stand."

Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, Page 3, Chapter "Models & Units", Subheading "Models", Sub-Subheading "Bases". ISBN 978-1841548753, Product Code: 60 04 01 99 020

Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

kanelom wrote:@Gwar, Show me where it says i cant adjust my flying base between the original height and the not hovering GW RAW end of movement landed height.

Show me where it says I can't smash your models with a hammer when they die.

The rules tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't. If it doesn't say you can, you cannot.

Gwar: Always found your rules understanding to be spot-on, see if this logic works:

1) The stand for the Valkyrie is a "Flying Stand" intended for use in Apocalypse battles. It is a flying model in those games but skimmer for 40k (being flexible, right?)
2) The instructions specifically state for the model: "Don't glue flying stand to the model if you want to be able to take it off". I know, not official rules, bear with me.
3) It does say in the small rule book page 71 "If a skimmer is immobilized or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible". I think the rule you quoted the "intent" was "attach" but yes, we are stuck with it. All those people I play against that have skimmers with rare earth magnets attaching them to bases will be very sad.

By using the rule that "all models must be glued to their stands" it would appear the Valkyrie can be fielded as-is with no stand legally (Not legal 40k stand) but in only that condition (no stand allowed).

Usually with permission, I use the stand for the occasional "wobbly model syndrome" and that is it, all measurements must be from hull on physical model.

If anyone does not like this, than according to the rules what can I do other than this?

Thanks

I'll glue my skimmers to their bases when you pry them from my cold dead hand! or something .... maybe just sleepy hand?

It is very impractical to glue your skimmers to the base, as they are the most fragile thing next to some model's swords. I think the point is treat the base as fixed until/unless your skimmer is immobile/wrecked. That would mean no voluntarily changing model height during a game, which was the OP's question.

Homer

@Homer S:

When rules questions enter this kind of situation, it's more of a joke to expand RAW to these levels.

Well...no body is telling you to glue your models to the base. People here are quoting RAW, because the rules were asked, it's obviously not always RAP.

Talizvar wrote:I know, not official rules, bear with me.

No, I will not. You cannot use non-rules in a rules debate. This is akin to someone saying "Necrons cannot ever take wounds because the codex says they are immortal in the fluff."

The rulebook says you MUST (not "May", "Can" or "if you want to", MUST) glue them to the base.

If you are able to take it off the base in any way, shape or form, you are breaking the rules. It's that simple.

Furthermore, the rules on page 71 say "if possible". It isn't possible, so it doesn't matter.

If you do not want to glue them, then you don't have to... but your models then require 'opponents permission' as you are not following the rules. And if you plan to 'treat the base as fixed until/unless your skimmer is immobile/wrecked' then I guarantee 99.999% of opponents will approve.

If you have a model which you attempt to change the base or the height of the base mid-game, that also requires 'opponents permission' which more people are unlikely to give because the rules don't allow it, it directly impacts gameplay and is modeling for advantage.

The rules say you can't remove the base mid-game except for a single situation. No rule allows you to modify or change the bases otherwise.

So... ludicrous extremes aside we've pretty firmly established that changing the height of the Valkyrie/Vendetta by removing it's flying stand base mid game is not sanctioned by the rules.

What I want to know is who voted that you could?

Gwar! wrote:Show me where it says I can't smash your models with a hammer when they die.

Gwar, could we please not talk about smashing minis with hammers. Having a GW idiot break the heads off my resin bit IG is still why I don't do tournies anymore and refuse to buy anything right from GW.

That said: I've seen plenty of flying bases that were slightly lower or slightly higher then standard, due to breakage. I'll further point out that RAW says 'the base it comes with' Thus, if, say, there was no base in your box, it didn't come with one. (Since RAW is 'the base it comes with" not 'the base it's supposed to come with")

Further, with flying bases, since we all know how easily they break (just sitting there, not moving or packed or anything) are replaced so often that very rarely will you see a skimmer 'on the base it comes with'.

And before anyone flips, yes, I have had minis right out of the box that had no bases. I usually have something the same size handy though.

That said: while I agree that it would make sense, GW rules do not cover changes in altitude during the game. I would suggest that you would have to use a house rule, and therefor be subject to opponents approval.

The Green Git wrote:You can't do that...

Because the rulebook says you're not allowed to remove the model from it's flight stand unless you are told to. Like when it's immobilized or wrecked.

bingo. whether or not the model's fluff says its VTOL or normally painted hot pink with white polka dots doesn't have anything to do with the rules. the rules say it's a fast skimmer and fast skimmer can't change their height in normal 40k; they may only be removed as the git said. tau skimmers have an almost useless piece of wargear that allows them to land and you remove them also in that circumstance.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Show me where it says I can't smash your models with a hammer when they die.

Gwar, could we please not talk about smashing minis with hammers. Having a GW idiot break the heads off my resin bit IG is still why I don't do tournies anymore and refuse to buy anything right from GW.

Depending on your immediate rage reaction, you should have either:
a. started breaking his head
b. call the police immediately and report vandalism and press charges.

B is probably the better option .... but i dont know if someone broke my stuff theyd be in for a world of hurt.

Gwar! wrote:

Talizvar wrote:I know, not official rules, bear with me.

No, I will not. You cannot use non-rules in a rules debate. This is akin to someone saying "Necrons cannot ever take wounds because the codex says they are immortal in the fluff."

The rulebook says you MUST (not "May", "Can" or "if you want to", MUST) glue them to the base.

If you are able to take it off the base in any way, shape or form, you are breaking the rules. It's that simple.

Furthermore, the rules on page 71 say "if possible". It isn't possible, so it doesn't matter.

Main Point of post was this: By using the rule that "all models must be glued to their stands" it would appear the Valkyrie can be fielded as-is with no stand legally (Not legal 40k stand) but in only that condition (no stand allowed).

I had said further down that it is a "flying stand" there is no flying units in 40k.

The "bear with me" was to try to prevent the rest of the post being dismissed out of hand like what was done.
It was to only show the intent, fine, I should have not added that line for the impatient. I will remember that for future rules quotes.
You stopped reading didn't you?

The stand for skimmers and jump infantry is part of the base--thus the hole.

kirsanth wrote:The stand for skimmers and jump infantry is part of the base--thus the hole.

As stated, if not in the rules it is not a logical argument. BTW Check out the model, no hole. The cross shaped plug for the flying stand is an optional item to glue on.

Talizvar wrote: The cross shaped plug for the flying stand is an optional item to glue on.

No, it isn't. The rules on page 3 make it clear you MUST Glue it.

Talizvar wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The stand for skimmers and jump infantry is part of the base--thus the hole.

As stated, if not in the rules it is not a logical argument.

Page 71
"Skimmers have transparent "flying bases". . . If immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. . . Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than the two cases above"