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Ok here goes, having played and enjoyed 40k for the last 17 years or so, I have finally had to admit defeat.

With GW's prices going up on what seems to be a monthly basis, I have finally been forced out. I intend to finish off my blood angels and then move on to pastures new.

I was just wondering what people opinions of warmachine were. Is it any cheaper, are the rules any good and what do you really need to get started.

All advice would be greatly appreciated, and hopefully when GW finally start to drop their prices I'll be in a position to start buying new 40k stuff again.

It's not cheap but with having to buy less minis for your army. You don't spend as much money as you would on GW stuff

Depending on what army you like, you can build a top quality list for under $200.

Warmachine is a great game. It's much cheaper to start than 40k. All you NEED to start is one of the $50.00 battle boxes and some dice. It comes with the quick start rules and the stat cards you need. Warmachine's rules are also a bit more clear cut and intuitive than 40k's are. They also have good customer support on their forums with tons of rules clarifications and painting tips. Although, modeling the WM minis is a bit more difficult than the 40k ones because they're metal.

Death Gear wrote:It's not cheap but with having to buy less minis for your army. You don't spend as much money as you would on GW stuff

I disagree. I have spent well over $600 on just my Cryx models, and I have mostly used a 30% off web dealer.

And if you have more than one caster, you will need more than just the models for a specific 35pt list. You will need the alternate units that work better with your other caster.

If you are happy net-decking, and buy only one specific list of models, you will come out cheaper. As you discover your playstyle, you will find units that work for you.
But as soon as you decide to branch out, it enters a similar price level to 40k.


If you are concerned of the price, get into Malifaux. $35 for a crew, and it is all you need. About $10 for each add'l model, and you really only need these for swapping, not adding.


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SamplesoWoopass wrote:Warmachine is a great game. It's much cheaper to start than 40k. All you NEED to start is one of the $50.00 battle boxes and some dice. It comes with the quick start rules and the stat cards you need. Warmachine's rules are also a bit more clear cut and intuitive than 40k's are. They also have good customer support on their forums with tons of rules clarifications and painting tips. Although, modeling the WM minis is a bit more difficult than the 40k ones because they're metal.

Rule support and clarity is great, I agree. There is also a higher learning curve to Warmachine. One mistake will cause your army to be crushed and your caster to be ground into jelly.

Modelling is no different than GW stuff, if you have ever built a metal model. Way less venting tabs to remove, and smoother mold lines for sure.

Cheaper to start may be true, but you will quickly find yourself moving past that level.

My suggestion is to get a BBox and a unit. Preferably one from the Prime MkII rulebook.
Starting with the units that show up in the rulebook keeps it simpler, as they seem to have moderate to low complexity.
Pretty much every unit you find in the rulebook is worth it.

i would play WM more if casterkills werent such a factor. Just a personal preferance, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah; I'll catch some flack for that but feth it; we're all entitled to our opinions. WM is not going to end up being a lot cheaper for you, unless you go the magnetization route I think. Like the "Heavy Warjack " model for Khador. Magnetize that fether and you can make 4 different heavies out of him. That gives you much flex. And luckily you are no longer in the days of InfantryMachine. Give it a go and sell me your BA when you are "done" with them.

You just need to play more scenarios. If you can hold off the assassination from the other guy, scenario is pretty fun.

Just won last nite eDenny vs Karchev with the 2 objective circles mission.
He could have pasted my warwitch and taken the point, but redirected tthe Drakhun from the one objective into my McThralls in midfield, so I was able to hold an objective with the Warwitch.
He got so fixated on killing all my stuff, he didn't send enough to clean off the objectives.

If you are looking for a really exotic experience, I'd definitely give Malifaux a go.

However you'll probably have an easier time finding WM opponents.

WM can be a very fun game at the 25-35 point level, which doesn't require a lot of money.

But like any cool game with great models, the temptation is always there to buy more cool stuff.

==Shameless Plug==

I just wrote an article for the magazine "Unseen Lerker" covering the topic of "Why Warmachine is worth a look". It's coming out in issue #4 which should publish next week.

Link to their site: http://unseenlerker.com/

(I know, I know, I have no shame)

Don't "move on" to Warmachine, just play it. There's absolutely no need to be exclusive to one game system. If you've been playing 40k for 17 years as you claim, you probably have no shortage of toys to play with.

Warmachine is an awsome game. The mini's are great, rule's are easy to pick up and because of how the army's can be played it takes up a load less space than Warhammer and 40K. Highly recomended

I played for a few years back in Mk1 time and couldn't recommend it.

I've looked at the rules and they don't seem to fix too many of the issues I had with the game. This is just after looking and seeing two games played, however, and rules play differently than they read. Still, I doubt that the game is much better than when I had left.

My major issues with the game was that it was less about movement and tactics than it was about finding combinations of abilities to use to win against your opponent. That's not a problem by itself, I've played a fair number of games that worked that way, but there are so many different units and rules (and the FAQ and errata while updated regularly was incredibly large and hard to keep up with) that it made it very very difficult to play with anything short of devotion. If you are one of those guys that didn't mind buying a lot of source books for D&D to find different combinations of abilities for your character, then WM might be a lot of fun. If you like a game that rewards movement and tactics (being defined here as an examination of the board with movement based on attacking but also reacting to your opponent) than I don't think it's very rich.

My other major issue, and one that seems to be not so bad now, was that the size of the armies were as big as 40k. My Cryx and Menoth were huge and didn't have very many jacks (they sucked in Mk1 and they still seem fairly weak in Mk2 but at least they don't cost any points towards your army). The mechanics of a game like 40k or Fantasy or Starship Troopers worked for a game with lots of figures. WM / Hordes just involved rolling 2d6 over and over and over again. The game felt clunky and just took a long time to play.

I'm not saying there's not fun to be had. If you have a gaming group that you like to play with and they're playing WM than I'm sure you'll have fun. But just be aware that it's very different than 40k / Fantasy and different in some ways that don't appeal to my taste, for the above stated reasons. Also, half of the models are nice and half of the models are crap. Unfortunately it always felt like the factions / units with the worst model usually had the best rules.

Brother SRM wrote:Don't "move on" to Warmachine, just play it. There's absolutely no need to be exclusive to one game system. If you've been playing 40k for 17 years as you claim, you probably have no shortage of toys to play with.

This is an enlightened attitude.

(Especially, as I believe I've seen WarMachine armies that would easily fit in a single Sabol tray or two, so you could probably bring both if you play at a store with minimal problems.)

I don't intend to get rid of my 40k I've spent too much time and effort into it to get rid. (plus I'm a bit of a hoarder, never throw anything away if I think I'll use it again. The wife hates me for it at times.) I also still enjoy playing I just can't afford to continue pumping money into the GW machine.

I just feel it's time to expand my horizons

Justicar Alaric wrote:
I just feel it's time to expand my horizons

That's definitely the right attitude.

I wouldn't discount GW stuff altogether. You can always find good trades and deals on eBay. I just offloaded a bunch of Ork bitz for the solid start of a Warriors of Chaos army. Anyway, don't let me tell you what toys to buy.

Justicar Alaric wrote:I don't intend to get rid of my 40k I've spent too much time and effort into it to get rid. (plus I'm a bit of a hoarder, never throw anything away if I think I'll use it again. The wife hates me for it at times.) I also still enjoy playing I just can't afford to continue pumping money into the GW machine.

I just feel it's time to expand my horizons

Sensible approach. However, as others have said, if you are looking at a cheap option, WM is not really it. If you want properly cheap and want to stick to 28mm then you need historicals. Some of the new plastic stuff from Warlord Games, Perry miniatures, Victrix and Immortal are very good value for money, and can still utilise your GW-inspired plastic modelling skills. Or you could switch scale: 20mm, 15mm, 6mm and 2mm are all available for sci-fi and fantasy gaming. At a fraction of the cost in time and money of 28mm.

Of course, cheap may not really be what you are looking for. More value for your invested money may be it and perhaps leagues, and organised tournaments and all that malarky are possibly what the hobby is all about for you, in which case PP's input into that is second to none, at least in the USA, and may provide some of the added value for money you are looking for in a game that GW doesn't really offer so well.

Everyone has their own breaking point when it comes to dedication to one manufacturer or product line, and once the seal is broken, there is a whole world of hobby available for whatever mix of genre/price/style you like. Keep researching, keep experimenting, and keep trying to work out what for YOU is YOUR hobby, and how you can enjoy it best. Do you seek variety or do you prefer depth to breadth? Do you like metal models? Do you like tanks? Do you like Sci-fi or history? Do you like a big, international gaming commuity to share ideas with, or are you happy chewing the fat with a couple of friends? Do you game to play out the background and give yourself an excuse to paint and model or do you play games to win and be king of the hill? All of these are valid, and each of us has them in different measures and those measures change as we age. Look at what makes your hobby gene tick and then focus on games, manufacturers and friends that scratch that itch, rather than just switch to whatever big name "everyone else" is apparently switching to.

At the end of the day, GW is just a company producing toys. One among many. So are PP, and while so far PP have avoided many of the pitfalls and irritations that GW have inflicted on their fans, they are ultimately just as profit-focussed as GW, and just as likely to prise your money from your wallet.

If you are going to think out of the box, then think right out of it, is my recommendation. Take ownership of your own hobby, rather than let a commercial company control it for you! You may end up still going for WM, or you may end up heading back to GW, or you may end up going any number of ways (I am now a hopelessly shallow magpie gamer with no particular individual game I particularly prefer, although I am in the middle of a minor Uncharted Seas kick at the minute!). The key though is that it is in a direction YOU have chosen for your own reasons, not because someone else has chosen for you.

Brother SRM wrote:Don't "move on" to Warmachine, just play it. There's absolutely no need to be exclusive to one game system. If you've been playing 40k for 17 years as you claim, you probably have no shortage of toys to play with.

Personally, "moving on" was the only option for a looooooooooong time, simply because I couldn't afford more than one army/game/etc. Starving college student, etc.

Beyond having the space for one's own gaming table, the ability to collect multiple games/armies is one of the best parts of being an older gamer.

skrulnik wrote:You just need to play more scenarios. If you can hold off the assassination from the other guy, scenario is pretty fun.

Problem is WM is designed and caters to tournament-style/competative play and caster kill as default. even the scenarios PP write are often only paying lip service to the concept because caster kill is still the default and often totally viable default win condition in any scenario.

Most WM players want to play caster kill in my experience. WM is a great game, but it is really M:TG in miniatures form when you break it down.

That is one of of the reasons I got burned out on WM and have recently back-burnered it: Lack of quality scenario/campaign play interest by the play base.


As for "switching" to it: Both games scratch a different itch for me and I don't see one being a substitute for the other.

For me:

40K is about scenario and campaign play potential, customization, format variety (Apoc, COD, etc.), creative modeling, masses of models, etc.

Warmachine is a thinking man's skirmish game uber-focused on competition, combo building, "deck building" and testing the limits of the rules engine and army design

Your mileage may vary...

I have played WM since the beginning when just the battle boxes existed, and it IS a great game, but just know what you are getting into.

Thanks for the response guys.

OK so from what I've read WM is aimed more towards tournament play, which is ok but I'm not really a tournament player so I was wondering if there were any games out there similar to 40K.

I'm more of a friendly non-tournament player. So if anybody out the knows of a reasonably priced skirmish game let me know.

It's a shame it's come to this, but funding for my hobby is pretty tight and I don't want to give it up. Unfortunately I can no longer justify spending £20 on a box of five plastic soldiers to my wife, and I personally don't feel GW is providing the value for money they used to.

Anybody got any ideas?

I wouldn't precisely call it aimed towards tournament play, just that the ruleset is a lot less riddled with holes than GW's, and thus leads to much smoother tournaments. Just because a system doesn't cause rules arguments to break out at every event doesn't automatically make it "designed for tournaments."

See if Birmingham has a local Press Ganger who'd be willing to demo it for you (if there is one, they will, considering they're required to). If not, Privateer has the quick start rules (including cards for all the models involved) here and here, which will let you know whether or not you like the ruleset.

If Warmachine isn't to your taste, you might consider Infinity or Malifaux, both of which lean heavily towards the skirmish side of things. Much smaller model count than either 40k or Warmachine, leaning more towards Necromunda or Mordheim in game size. Both also have pretty damn amazing models, and Malifaux has the interesting distinction of being a diceless game (YMMV on whether this is a good thing or not).

Thing is, WM pretty much costs the same as 40k. Really, PP is heading down a similar road GW is.

Laughing Man wrote:I wouldn't precisely call it aimed towards tournament play, just that the ruleset is a lot less riddled with holes than GW's, and thus leads to much smoother tournaments. Just because a system doesn't cause rules arguments to break out at every event doesn't automatically make it "designed for tournaments."

I'd clarify that tourney-style play and competitive play are focused on by the company (in an unspoken way by what they do and don't do) and that this has filtered down as the norm in the player base as a whole for the most part.

The scenarios they write all have caster kill as a secondary win condition which in effect allows a player to ignore any scenario being played. That definitely smacks of not putting a lot of importance on true scenario play, but more paying lip service to the idea as a way to silence critics.

Also from experience PP/WM tournaments have there share of troubles, trouble makers, rules disputes, cries of cheese and imbalance, etc. It isn't all sunshine and roses...

Also for a game that hasn't been around that long they have already forced players to buy three different rulebook incarnations and card sets to stay current, so yeah I'd hope they woud be getting the kinks ironed out and have less holes considering the money I have had to drop to keep playing...

Also for a game that hasn't been around that long they have already forced players to by three different rulebook incarnations and card sets to stay current, so yeah I'd hope they woud be getting the kinks ironed out and have less holes considering the money I have had to drop to keep playing...

Closer to two books, really. All Remix was was a reprint of Prime with the errata included, all of which you could download for free. And really, one edition change in eight years isn't too bad.

Also from experience PP/WM tournaments have there share of troubles, trouble makers, rules disputes, cries of cheese and imbalance, etc. It isn't all sunshine and roses...

Never said it was, just that there's a hell of a lot less rules issues when compared to 40k, where it seems there's half a dozen wonky new interactions every codex. You'll still have TFG show up no matter what game you're playing.

Just play both as stated above I play both but enjoy warmachine hordes far more. Fixed game turns can be pretty slowed. It is cheaper then getting into 40k don't let anyone tell you different.

i almost totally dropped 40k from the "to do" list after getting into warmachine. its not for everyone, but i feel i think more in this game and therefore get more out of it.

As you are UK based I would advise you to look into 15mm Ancient and Mediaevals. Armies are cheap and quick to paint in this scale. If based on the standard "WRG" basing they can be used with half a dozen rule sets.

You could also download a couple of free SF rulesets and play them with your existing 40K figures.

Nercomunda. One box of blokes, plus maybe a couple of cheap buys from e-bay and you have hours of fun.(Providing you have 2 or 3 people to play with!)
And if you want to expand a bit run two gangs to make things more interesting.

Also i have heard Killteams (from the battlemissons rulebook, 200pts per game, maybe push upto 250-300pts) is meant to be good for just having a small army, 1000pts from each list should give you enough fexibility for your games.

I don't know much about Warmachine; I like some of their models, but the games 'hook' (Warjacks) does nothing for me. But this is an interesting discussion - would someone explain what 'caster kill' means?

Justicar - if you're essentially a social gamer, then I'd suggest that you look at what is being played locally before choosing something to branch out into. Not much point going for a new games system if noone else is interested.

Tailgunner wrote: would someone explain what 'caster kill' means?

in warmachine/hordes, when your warcaster gets killed the game is usually over unless your playing a special scenario or something. you only have one warcaster in most games, so they are the center of your force.

some warcasters are squishy back of the line casters who die to a stiff breeze but have alot of good spells and such, so you have to balance there placement in conjunction with how you want them to buffyour army and blast your enemies. on the other hand, some casters are up front beatsticks that can delete entire units and warjacks in hand to hand combat. this is great but now you have your caster in the thick of it and its easier for them to get singled out and killed.

if you play tourneys like steamroller, the scenarios always have caster kill as a default win condition. i personally like it.

Malifaux is a cheap(ish) 28 mm game thats quiet good and has a growing player base in Birmingham so you will find games.

i like malifaux as well but my local meta is very small. the worst part fo getting into a new game is having no one to play against.