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Hi all. I'm thinking of resuming warmachine - I got a little sidetracked changing job, moving, getting married and stuff like that!

Essentially I need some info on what I need to 'update' as well as some expansion tips for my warband. Without further ado - Minis I have:

Deneghra
Mortenebra/Deryl
2 Deathipper Bonejacks
2 Nightwretch Bonejack
The Nightmare/Slayer (proxy him as normal jack)
Skarlock (using Deryl as proxy)
Pistol Wraith
The Withershadow Combine
Cankerworm
Gorman DeWolfe
8 Bile Thralls
(I never bought into infantry machine as you can see - maybe now its paid off?)

I assume that I have enough for skirmish games - without being explicit / breaking rules would anyone have a rough idea of how many points I would have?

What I'm primarily wondering about is with the above minis what else is worth getting especially with a view to expanding up points towards melee level. I ask as due to lack of FLGS it is better for me to get minis and books in one big order from my online retailer of choice so if there's anything else I should get I would need to get it at the same time.

So far I intend to get : Cryx mkii deck, mkii rulebook and the cryx book - but do I actually need the cryx book? {cards are still included with models right? and I'll be getting the new deck} as this would free up some space/£ for more minis. Lets face it the mini's are what its about.

My primary questions are : do I need the cryx book - can I do without it if I have the deck, and are the bloodwitches any good as an infantry unit or should I get bane knights/bane thralls or mechthralls? Further details are in a wall o' text™ below!


Thanks in advance for any advice/input/criticsm/help :-)

Ok so lets start with the easy stuff, the points have changed considerably with mk 2, for instance your warcaster is now free and comes with warjack points(free points to spend on warjacks in the battle group). With the stuff you have already you are probably around 40 pts give or take a few points, I don't think you really need the cryx book unless you just want the fluff most of the rules you need will be in the deck.
As far as jacks and units go it kind of depends which caster you are planning to use, denny doesnt want as many jacks because she likes to spend her focus casting.
Montanebra likes her jacks many of her spells and abilities are geared tword having plenty of hell jacks around.
Any of the units you mentioned should be fine mcthralls are solid and very cheap, bane thralls now have a very solid ua that make them very good. And bane knights are still good also, the witches are a bit more situational and will mostly excell at killing infantry. The other units you mentioned all serve double duty and can go after hard or soft targets.
Well I hope this has helped a bit and good luck, I really enjoy mk2 and I am sure you will too.

Forward Kommander FTW:

http://www.forwardkommander.com

Forward Commander is the awsome :-) Thanks.

I think I get the points thing now - casters = free and bonus jack points. IE denny = 0pts and +x pts to my army list which I must use on machines ya?

So essentially I *do not* need the cryx book? - as if so that would free me up to take another slayer kit (so maybe have slayer, reaper and nightmare/slayer?) whcih means moar options as well as 3 jacks for a morty list.

I want to get a 2nd heavy jack

Right now I'm seriously thinking about;

2 jack kits, 2 warwitch solos a necrotech and 2 defilers* seeing as nightwretches got the nerf. However I am wondering about denegrahs tier list. Anyone know what sort of stuff i need for it?

I suggest Deathjack or Seether. The DJ for Mortenebra's Tier list, and Seether for Withershadow's Dark Industries.

You should buy the books if you think you want to play the Tier lists. Preview pics for a bunch are around the net. Start with the PP Forums or Bell of Lost Souls.

Definitely get McThralls or Banes of either flavor before Blood Witches. Witches will only be usefull against other infantry, or Hordes.

I think you have the makings of a solid Mrtenebra Tier list. A couple more heavies, some Necrotechs, and you are set.

You'll need to get 2 Warwitch Sirens if you want to use Mortenebra's tier list efficiently. Aside from that they're just too good to pass up. 2 points for a free focus for your arc nodes /heavy jack when you want to overboost? This 2 point model can also do a free Venom spray? What's that, she also has a reach weapon, shadow bind, stealth, immunity to freestrikes? And she can temporarily control an enemy infantry model too? For 2 points, you say? (oh, and SPD 7 )

So yeah no matter what you plan on doing, buy 2 Warwitch Sirens ASAP. Also if you're planning on getting a heavy jack, get the Seether. For lower points it can count as a Slayer, and when you can afford the extra 3 points it suddenly gets a free extra focus every turn, can run/charge for free, has chain attack:grab and smash, and does NOT have any of the drawbacks from MK1. Deathjack is also amazing; he can cast your spells, gets 2 free focus per turn, can take souls and then use them to heal, (or next turn they become even more focus!) has a 360 front arc, pow 18 fists on MAT 8, and just generally rapes everything. If you are allocating 3 focus to DJ every turn, he's getting 5 focus per turn. At mat 8 and pow 18 you won't need to boost very often, so that's 5 extra swings with a pow 18 fist.

You're coming from MK1, which I've never played, but from what I heard jacks used to pretty much suck. Not anymore. Jacks are AMAZING. If you know how to use your jacks you can tear into whatever the enemy is fielding. As far as infantry, if you're running a Mortenebra list you can get by without any infantry at all. Otherwise you'll generally want some around. Bane Thralls + their UA is the most survivable infantry unit out of those 4 you mentioned, because they have stealth, tough, and free stand up from tough. I happen to prefer Bane Knights though, because 1st, they have Reach. 2nd, they have ghostly. They're unaffected by terrain and can't take free strikes. 3rd, Vengeance. Basically if any of them are killed by the opponent, in your next maintenance phase they get a free 3" move and free attack, effectively adding 3" to their threat range. If you get either Bane unit, get Bane Lord Tartarus. He can Curse a unit, and all bane units (including himself) get 2" extra move when charging that unit. The curse also gives the enemy -2 DEF, which combined with the -2 ARM from Dark Shroud, is very nasty. He has Thresher too, which if you don't know it, lets you hit everything in your melee (reach) range. Lastly Mechanithralls are the cheapest to field, average stats but with 2 attacks each, and if you take a Necrosurgeon you can replenish the unit as it takes casualties.

Cool. That said I would like to focus on Denny as my 'primary' while learning the 'new rules'. I will keep in mind about the blood witches - tbh I like 'unliving' stuff a bit more ;-)

I guess if bane thralls have stealth then that helps keep it all alive. Essentially I want to have options open.

Thanks for all the replies. I will be back when I finally make all my decisions :-)

If Denny is your caster of choice then i must insist even more that you get those Sirens. I cannot stress enough just how valuable it is to be able to save your focus for spells and let the Sirens give your arc nodes focus to run with. Combined with a free Ghost Walk from a Skarlock, you can slip a bonechicken 14 inches right past the enemy to get a line on their caster/random juicy target, and still have all 7 focus to pump spells through the node with.

Awsome - 2 ninja witch chicks...

as I say my only issue now is what infantry unit to get... are 6 mech thralls worth it or should i get more bile thralls (ie another unit)?

MasterDRD wrote:If Denny is your caster of choice then i must insist even more that you get those Sirens. I cannot stress enough just how valuable it is to be able to save your focus for spells and let the Sirens give your arc nodes focus to run with. Combined with a free Ghost Walk from a Skarlock, you can slip a bonechicken 14 inches right past the enemy to get a line on their caster/random juicy target, and still have all 7 focus to pump spells through the node with.

Ghost walk lets you go through terrain, not models. Big difference.

I've found it too easy to run out of Control are with chickens when you use Sirens, so there is that to worry about.

Sirens are good, but you need to have a plan for them. Think of them as DennyJrs and use them that way, they will do well. The Shadowbind melee attack should be a last resort. Mat 5 makes it tough to hit, and if you miss, you are jelly.

The stats on the McThralls should be offset by the spells you put on their target with Denny.
If you charge a Jack with McThralls and have Crippling Grasp or Parasite on it already, it should be toast.

I would suggest the McThralls as first unit, because they have the combo-strike at P+S 15 for Jacks, or 2 attacks at P+S 11 for infantry.
Banes are nice, but lack the versatility and lowcost of McThralls.

Necrosurgeon is something to consider, but raises the relative cost of Mechanithralls into the realm of Bane Thralls and Knights.


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Phototoxin wrote:Awsome - 2 ninja witch chicks...

as I say my only issue now is what infantry unit to get... are 6 mech thralls worth it or should i get more bile thralls (ie another unit)?

You need the full 10. 6 will never see combat, even with a necrosurgeon.

Essentially a max unit of mcthralls and surgeon goes out of my budget.

What is in would be 2 slayer kits, 2 necrotechs, 2 warwitches and a pistol wraith.
I could swap out a necrotech or pistol wraith for a surgeon I guess but I'm not running mcthralls yet.

I think some mcThralls w/ surgeon and mcbrute will be the next thing in a few months. I would probably get the book then aswell.

skrulnik wrote:

MasterDRD wrote:If Denny is your caster of choice then i must insist even more that you get those Sirens. I cannot stress enough just how valuable it is to be able to save your focus for spells and let the Sirens give your arc nodes focus to run with. Combined with a free Ghost Walk from a Skarlock, you can slip a bonechicken 14 inches right past the enemy to get a line on their caster/random juicy target, and still have all 7 focus to pump spells through the node with.

Ghost walk lets you go through terrain, not models. Big difference.

I've found it too easy to run out of Control are with chickens when you use Sirens, so there is that to worry about.

Sirens are good, but you need to have a plan for them. Think of them as DennyJrs and use them that way, they will do well. The Shadowbind melee attack should be a last resort. Mat 5 makes it tough to hit, and if you miss, you are jelly.

The stats on the McThralls should be offset by the spells you put on their target with Denny.
If you charge a Jack with McThralls and have Crippling Grasp or Parasite on it already, it should be toast.

I would suggest the McThralls as first unit, because they have the combo-strike at P+S 15 for Jacks, or 2 attacks at P+S 11 for infantry.
Banes are nice, but lack the versatility and lowcost of McThralls.

Necrosurgeon is something to consider, but raises the relative cost of Mechanithralls into the realm of Bane Thralls and Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:Awsome - 2 ninja witch chicks...

as I say my only issue now is what infantry unit to get... are 6 mech thralls worth it or should i get more bile thralls (ie another unit)?

You need the full 10. 6 will never see combat, even with a necrosurgeon.

I said past the enemy, I never said through them. It's generally not that hard to find a medium-base sized hole in the enemy line. They key for not going out of ctrl is knowing the distance between your caster and your jack before the jack moves, which is made easier by the fact that you can measure your control area whenever...

You could also look into Brute Thralls if you decide to go with Mechanithralls; they pack a big punch. And again... Necrosurgeon. Those 2 points might not sound great on paper but being able to refill your McThralls unit at 3 models per turn is nothing to sneeze at... And as for the Sirens, you may scoff at their MAT 5 now but when a free strike with reach shadowbinds an enemy headed for your caster...

I said past the enemy, I never said through them. It's generally not that hard to find a medium-base sized hole in the enemy line. They key for not going out of ctrl is knowing the distance between your caster and your jack before the jack moves, which is made easier by the fact that you can measure your control area whenever...

You could also look into Brute Thralls if you decide to go with Mechanithralls; they pack a big punch. And again... Necrosurgeon. Those 2 points might not sound great on paper but being able to refill your McThralls unit at 3 models per turn is nothing to sneeze at... And as for the Sirens, you may scoff at their MAT 5 now but when a free strike with reach shadowbinds an enemy headed for your caster...

Just because you can measure doesn't mean you cannot make the mistake. I have missed it by 1/4" before. I suggested caution, that is all.

I've never gotten the Necrosurgeon to work. All it takes is an opponent getting through a portion of your McThralls and capping the Surgeon and all those tokens are worthless.
You can position for Sac Pawn, but one good AOE makes that a tough choice.

I have yet to have the Siren hit anything that isn't a Khador Jack. If someone is making a run at your caster, they will find a way to kill the siren way before they risk the freestrike.
Like I said, a siren in melee is a last resort, not something you plan to do.


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Phototoxin wrote:Essentially a max unit of mcthralls and surgeon goes out of my budget.

What is in would be 2 slayer kits, 2 necrotechs, 2 warwitches and a pistol wraith.
I could swap out a necrotech or pistol wraith for a surgeon I guess but I'm not running mcthralls yet.

I think some mcThralls w/ surgeon and mcbrute will be the next thing in a few months. I would probably get the book then aswell.

Are you convinced on the Pistol Wraith?

For the amount of money the above cost, I would go with a Seether, Defilers (Sprays are God in MkII), 1 Necrotech, the Witches, and a real Skarlock.

I just noticed you asked about Denny's Tier List. Witching Hour is:

Only Non-C jacks, Biles and McThralls, Necrotechs, Pistols, Scraps, Skarlock, and WWSirens.

T1 gives FA+1 to Sirens for every helljack and AD to Sirens.

T2 4+ solos gives +1 starting roll (2+ sirens and Skarlock at least here)

T3 gives a free bonejack if you have 4+ (suggest a free 5pt Defiler)

T4 If you have 2+ Helljacks, each one gets Advance move.(like scout move in 40k).

I just like the pistol wraith in last edition - has he got the nerf? the chill strike thing was pretty good - whe nit worked. I already have one and no I'm not convinced that a 2nd = better. I am convinced on ninja witches. Real skarlock mini is cool I could roll with him.

T1 denny = more sirens for each helljack? and AD = advance deploy right (the free move thing) That sounds more like my kinda play - infiltrate and evade :-) with the crunches coming up behind

T2 = that would be the skarlock, 2 sirens then proll the tech pistol wraith

T3 - If I need more bone jacks - defilers are the logical next step then that's 2 of each type. (and I see that wretches need focus to blast now )

T4 would be easy to achieve as I'd have 3 helljacks.

I have bile thralls which also seem to fit the deneghra style. :-)

Seems like my best bet is as you mentioned :

2 x ninja warwitches (+ another for the denny tier?)
1x skarlock
1x jack kit
1x seether - or jack kit and some fine chain (might rather do the conversion as plastic is easier to play with, assemble) -but how does this work for tournaments?
2x defiler (1 pack)
1x necrotech