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Ok the situation is,

if I have an infantry squad with a Commissar which is also within range of the Regimental Standard fail a leadership test can I use the reroll from the standard before the commissar shoots the sergeant in the face?

I believe you can choose either. *hint hint

SpankHammer III wrote:Ok the situation is,

if I have an infantry squad with a Commissar which is also within range of the Regimental Standard fail a leadership test can I use the reroll from the standard before the commissar shoots the sergeant in the face?

The commissar shoots him in the face no matter which one you use, since the shooting is triggered by failing the first check.

Disagree, since when you get a reroll it's as if the first roll never happened. Just like you don't take a save against a 1 on the first roll for a twin-linked Gets Hot weapon, you only take the save if the second roll is a 1. So he only gets shot if the second roll fails, course at that point you're running and don't get another reroll..........

don_mondo wrote:Disagree, since when you get a reroll it's as if the first roll never happened.

By that logic, a Commissar will never shoot anyone ever. Since it only works when they Fail the first Morale Check.

I meant if they're using the standard for the reroll, otherwise the Commisars rule which causes him to shoot someone is the only thing that allows the reroll, ie he has to shoot someone before they get it. With the standard in play, if they take the reroll off the standard, the commissars rule doesn't kick in until the fail the second one. And possibly not even then, since you can't reroll a reroll and the only reason the commissar shoots someone is to allow the reroll.

Make sense?

Sorry Mondo are you saying that if I use the reroll from the standard, I couldn't then also use the "shoot you in the face" rule?

don_mondo wrote:I meant if they're using the standard for the reroll, otherwise the Commisars rule which causes him to shoot someone is the only thing that allows the reroll, ie he has to shoot someone before they get it. With the standard in play, if they take the reroll off the standard, the commissars rule doesn't kick in until the fail the second one. And possibly not even then, since you can't reroll a reroll and the only reason the commissar shoots someone is to allow the reroll.

Make sense?

That's not how the commissar rule works. The rule is written is two parts.

One says that if you fail a morale test, you shoot a guy.

The next bit says you can then re-roll the morale check.

So it doesn't matter if you have another way of re-rolling the morale check, if you fail one, he shoots a guy. THEN You get to re-roll it with the standard.

You've already used your reroll on a moral check, so you can't reroll it again.

The Commissar will shoot someone in the face anyway - "If the Commissar's unit fails a Moral test the Commissar will summarily execute the squad's current commander - this is the model in the squad with the highest Leadership value." He does this uncontrollably, and only then tries to provide another reroll (which can't be used) as a seperate clause in his rules.

Edit - That's what I get for quoting the codex.

Ok that makes sense, so if there is a commissar you pretty much ignore the standard.

I think that you would reroll the failed check, and if the second one fails then the Commisar pops someone and the squad falls back anyway (or whatever bad thing happens for failing the morale check).

That, or the Commisar rule is an involuntary action so it happens first and you simply ignore the standard.

(note: the involuntary action thing happening first is a house rule that we play by to settle disputes like this so your milage may vary)


Edit: ninja'd

Sorry to be lazy but does anyone have the page number in the BRB, where it says you can't reroll rerolls?

Correct, you can't use both since you cannot reroll a reroll. Just like you couldn't reroll a second 1 on twin-linked matercrafted Gets Hot weapon. Having two rerolls available does not mean you get to use both of them.

So if you do get to choose which reroll to use (and yes, I think you do get to choose), then the sequence would look like this:

1. Fail first test
2. Choose to use standard for reroll
3a. Pass standard allowed reroll. Commissar doesn't shoot anyone because the unit never 'failed' a test, since the standard allowed reroll makes it as if the first roll never occurred.
3b. Fail standard allowed reroll. Unit breaks and runs. Commissar still doesn't shoot anyone as then only reason he shoots someone is to allow a reroll and the unit cannot take another reroll.
Alternatively, you could say he shoots someone just because they did fail the second test, but they're still going to run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

don_mondo wrote:I meant if they're using the standard for the reroll, otherwise the Commisars rule which causes him to shoot someone is the only thing that allows the reroll, ie he has to shoot someone before they get it. With the standard in play, if they take the reroll off the standard, the commissars rule doesn't kick in until the fail the second one. And possibly not even then, since you can't reroll a reroll and the only reason the commissar shoots someone is to allow the reroll.

Make sense?

That's not how the commissar rule works. The rule is written is two parts.

One says that if you fail a morale test, you shoot a guy.

The next bit says you can then re-roll the morale check.

So it doesn't matter if you have another way of re-rolling the morale check, if you fail one, he shoots a guy. THEN You get to re-roll it with the standard.

But again, if you are using the standard to allow the reroll, then you haven't failed until after the second test.................... And he doesn't shoot someone unless they fail a test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SpankHammer III wrote:Sorry to be lazy but does anyone have the page number in the BRB, where it says you can't reroll rerolls?

Page 2, under the section on rerolls.............

I don't think you count as failing a morale check if you take and succeed on a re-roll. Otherwise the Mark of Chaos Glory wouldn't do anything, as you fall back when you fail. Same thing with fortune, or any other re-roll.

now, where things get interesting is that the commissar requires that you re-roll failed checks, while the standard allows it. I would be comfortable with the ruling that you have to use a commissar, because he has to re-roll, and you can't re-roll a re-roll.

I think you can make the argument that you
1) fail the check originally
2) take the standard re-roll, and fail again
3) Commissar shoots a guy
4) commissar requires a re-roll, but can't due to multiple re-roll rule
5) Squad falls back.

Mondo ninja'd me, but I think the commissar will always shoot somebody on a failed test. The re-roll is linked to the execution, not vice-versa.

That's actually how I play it. Don't remember why but it was probably from discussions here.

forkbanger wrote:You've already used your reroll on a moral check, so you can't reroll it again.

The Commissar will shoot someone in the face anyway - "If the Commissar's unit fails a Moral test the Commissar will summarily execute the squad's current commander - this is the model in the squad with the highest Leadership value." He does this uncontrollably, and only then tries to provide another reroll (which can't be used) as a seperate clause in his rules.

Edit - That's what I get for quoting the codex.

agreed. i'd choose the regimental standard reroll for obvious reasons. if you then fail again, the commissar shoots a sergeant and you fall back as you can't reroll a reroll. the first reroll negates the original failed roll so the commissar doesn't off someone right away.

It is the same as Gets Hot! on a twin linked weapon: if you roll a 1 then choose to reroll, the initial 1 never happened.

If you fail a morale and reroll the test and pass, you never failed the test - so the commisar never shoots anyone.

Yeah, you get to apply your effects in whatever order you choose. Fun as it is to have Commissars give dudes extra holes in their heads, it's a waste if you have an alternate method.

It is hilarious to use Fear of the Dark on guardsmen with a Commissar, though. He might execute enough of his men to force a Moral check and then execute even more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you fail a morale and reroll the test and pass, you never failed the test - so the commisar never shoots anyone.

Which means the Commissar never shoots anyone ever.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you fail a morale and reroll the test and pass, you never failed the test - so the commisar never shoots anyone.

Which means the Commissar never shoots anyone ever.

Wait, what? That's how it works.

A unit with a Commissar...
-fails a test, with a standard. Choose to use your standard to reroll. Pass, and the first roll doesn't count. Commissar doesn't shoot anyone.
-fails a test, with a standard. Choose not to use your standard to reroll. Uncontrollably shoot someone in the face. Reroll, and the first roll doesn't count.
-fails a test, no standard. Uncontrollably shoot someone in the face. Reroll, and the first roll doesn't count.

What I am saying is you cannot say you didn't fail the first test for the purposes of the Commissars rules but did for the purposes of the Standard.

You failed the first test, that's WHY you are using the standard. Because you did fail it, the Commissar shoots someone.

Taking the standard out of the picture for a moment, I think he's talking about the paradox created by assuming that in making a reroll, it's as if the first roll never happened.

Example:

- Failed morale check
- Commissar caps the Sergeant
- Reroll the dice.
- By virtue of the fact that the dice were rerolled, and the first roll never happened the Commissar never capped the Sergeant, however we still have one dead Sergeant
- Reality implodes and sucks the entire solar system into the 11th dimension.

By that argument, you would fall back after failing the first check, regardless of how you do on the re-roll.

That argument leads to all rerolls becoming illegal, though.

If you roll and fail, then reroll and pass, you haven't failed and so couldn't reroll your original failure. So you've failed. So you can use your reroll, but if you pass you've succeeded and so couldn't reroll and...

Yeah.

Not saying I disagree, but personally, I do think that the best solution is to simply ignore the standard...or more precisely, resolve the Commissar's rule first since it must happen.

So does the regimental standard. It says that all friendly units in 12" re-roll failed morale and pinning tests. It's not optional anymore.

sence the commissar is in the unit with the failed role, HIS reroll must be used first. If the comissar's roll fails then you can move outside the unit and use the standard.

unit fail test - commissar in unit rerolls - standard rerolls

Ah, just reread it. Sticky one to resolve. Personally, if I was playing opposite to the IG player, I'd give them a chance to reroll with the standard first and if he still failed the reroll, then I'd say the commissar caps the sergeant and the squad falls back anyway (or whatever the results of the failed check). If I was playing as the IG I'd offer that solution first, and if the other player wasn't agreeable to it, then I'd offer a 4+ roll to decide which rule happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matt65 wrote:sence the commissar is in the unit with the failed role, HIS reroll must be used first. If the comissar's roll fails then you can move outside the unit and use the standard.

unit fail test - commissar in unit rerolls - standard rerolls

You can't as you cannot reroll a reroll. Not to mention that there is no rule that says his MUST be used first since he is in the squad.

Gwar! wrote:What I am saying is you cannot say you didn't fail the first test for the purposes of the Commissars rules but did for the purposes of the Standard.

You failed the first test, that's WHY you are using the standard. Because you did fail it, the Commissar shoots someone.

Like I said way earlier, I disagree. If you pass the reroll allowed by the staqndard, then it's as if the first roll never happened. And if it never happened, why is the Commissar going to shoot someone?

We can either keep repeationg the same lines back and forth or just agree to disagree.

If the commissar's unit fails a morale test the commissar will summarily execute the squad's current commander - this is the model in the squad with the highest leadership value.

If two ore more models in the same squad as the commissar have the same leadership value, randomly determine which of the models is executed. A commissar of either rank will never execute himself or another commissar of either rank - ignore these models when determining who is eligible for execution

The executed model is immediately removed as a casualty, regardless of the number of wounds remaining. the unit in question must then re-roll the failed morale check - if this test also fails then the squad falls back as normal

Ig codex pg 32

I would say that based on this wording the sgt gets Blamd as an event triggered by failing the morale test, so before anything happens you lose your sgt. afterwards you would re-roll via summary execution or regimental standard(not that it matters)