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Hey i wanted to get some advice from you on my bike list before i finish purchasing everything and putting it all together.

i already have 6 land speeder typhoons so i was hoping build a bike list around that sort of.

1985 (so far) Space Marines

HQ

Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, hellfire rounds - 190

Command Squad with melta gun x3, lightning claws x3, storm shield x4, thunder hammer, company standard, bikes - 385

Troops

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer, power fist - 320

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer, power fist - 320

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer, power fist - 320

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

The plan was to combat squad and put a melta and sergeant in one squad and a melta/multi melta in the other and make 6 troops in non-kill point missions. I also have 15 points left over that i don't know what to do with, i was debating between giving the command squad a flamer and 2 melta bombs or give the captain a storm shield the latter seems like a waste when he already has a 4+ invul. What do you think of this list?

- Cromwest

very similar to a list i've used... quite good. I'm not a fan of the command squad (too expensive, against str8 weaponry in mass even a 3+ save won't do you too much good)... i'd rather have a librarian on a bike and perhaps another bike squad.

I've used the configuration for my bikers of 2 max size squads with plasma / multimeltas, and 2 smaller (sarge+3+attack bike) squads with meltas / multimeltas. attach the HQ's to the plasma squads, and it gives you some better ability to deal with MEQ.

(your list is illegal also, sergeants on bikes cannot have combi-weapons and fists)

2000 Points

Captain - artificer armor, relic blade, hellfire rounds, melta bombs, bike

Min bike squad w/ attack bike, +1 bike, 2 x flamer, multi melta, sgt w/ power fist (attach captain here)
Min bike squad w/ attack bike - 2 x melta, multi melta, combi flamer
Min bike squad w/ attack bike - 2 x melta, multi melta
Min bike squad w/ attack bike - 2 x melta, multi melta
Min bike squad w/ attack bike - 2 x plasma, multi melta, combi plasma

3 x typhoon
3 x typhoon
3 x typhoon

More managable squad sizes and substantially more special weapons and high S long range shots. Refined and optimized over the past year or so...

Crap your right i missed that part in the sergeants wargear i figured he had a chainsword/pistol like a regular sergeant. Good catch.


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Seeing how i own the bike command squad and the 6 speeders do you think this is a workable list with these changes. I figure i have enough stand off and shoot power from the speeders 3 - 6 solid melta units with twinlinked bolters for hoards and regular infantry and one mean CC unit and the entire army is fast though the loss of the the combi-flamers saddens me. Would you say this is a decent start to a serious bike list?

Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, hellfire rounds - 190

Command Squad with melta gun x3, lightning claws x3, storm shield x4, thunder hammer, company standard, bikes - 385

Troops

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, meltabomb - 290

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, power fist - 310

Bike Squad + attack bike + 5 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta - 285

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon x2 - 180

How about instead of running 3 units of 2 typhoons, can't you run 2 units of 2 typhoons and then a unit of 3 tornadoes with heavy bolters and heavy flamers for the horde killing. Thats if you are still saddened by the loss of your anti-infantry killing ability.

I dont know about the flamer speeders getting up close. In my regular mech list i run flamer/melta speeders and they have a tendency to die to bolters and other str 4 pretty frequently event when turbo boosted.

@ the lastest list:

I do not suggest a power fist on a min. unit.
In additon, MSU play does not work for everyone. I personally like full squads, but a balance is nice too (flexible to boot).

The command squad is weakening the rest of the list.
18 Scoring models? Holy crap that is quite flimsy.

Typhoons are nice, but pricey esp. with a decked out command squad in the list too.

sanct, his latest list has 3 maxed size squads... maybe its just the formatting that confuses you?

I still say work in a biker librarian ><

Yes, it does confuse me.
With that cleared up. It's 'just' under the comfortable number of scoring bodies for 2000 IMO.

And I agree with Honorsstodnt's chime about the Libby.

The librarian would definitely be a good addition and is fairly easy to convert if you can find the white scars biker commander carrying the polearm.

As for the heavy flamer, I also do not like them. I was just throwing out the idea. I prefer running a unit of 3 speeders with 2 heavy bolters each. It lays down quite a bit of fire power for only 60pts per speeder.

As for the command squad, can't you just split them up into another biker unit??? Just pop off the lightning claws, standard, and storm shields and you have the basis of another biker squad. Its fairly easy to fix model wise.

When i first started running bikes, I took max squads and combat squadded them when I needed to. I have found oer the last few months that 2 min squads with 4 special weapons is far better than 1 max squad. You should avoid combat at all costs, so you do not need the bodies for shields (except the captains squad...)

I have also found that typhoons are exactly what the list needs to round it out. The more the merrier. At 2500, I use the list I posted with an additional min flamer squad and 3 vindicators. Won 2 rounds of 'ard boyz with that build at this point...

See that's what i was thinking too using the main troops to spam special weapons/twin linked bolters and using the captain and command squad to bail people out of close combat if they get stuck. I really like the typhoon speeders too since they end up being the reason why I win a lot of games with my mech list since there surprisingly versatile they take out tanks, infantry, troops, sneak around to get shots on side and rear armor and best of all now that I've been using them for a while I'm getting good with blocking heavy transports from moving directly towards me and contesting points at the end of the game.

Any way I was wondering since you said 4 special weapons per min squad what were you using? Combi-meltas or flamers? And if you dont mind could you post the 2000 pt version of your list.

I like bikes, when I used them alot in 2nd and 3rd edition I had vet bike squads, mounted on tracked bikes they were awsome back then. Now I cant use em.....there hvy bikes with 1 missile launcher and 1 multi-laser with 3 bikes x2 bolters. There in my bits box falling to pieces....::sobs::

Yeah when sixth edition comes out and they redo space marines I'm gonna be in a world of hurt cause i haven't magnetized anything. Here's to hoping the next update is in the distant future and doesn't invalidate anything in my army.

MSU can work, it just depends on the mission and if the opponent can take adv. of it.
Like Inigo Montoya, I do like at the very least a max squad for the Captain (without the use of a command squad).

Typhoons are awesome, hands down. But funny enough, they are priced appropriately... and you really pay for them as they are not cheap for their defensive stats (outside of their 48" ranged main weapons).

CRom
I'm an experienced bike player here are my thoughts:

landspeeders are awesome but I don't like typhoons. They're very expensive and IMO underpowered; meltas are better against tanks and flamers are better against infantry so if you can overcome the tactical challenge of getting the speeder there you get a cheaper and a killier unit.

Bikes are basically useless in close combat except in very limited situations so I prefer to run small expendable squads that rely on short range fire power to destroy the badguys and count the bikes as lost if they get assaulted. For that reason I don't believe in running power fists in bike squads.

Bike command squads are awesome, tough as plague marines can carry as many special weapons as they want... They're about the same price as your normal bikers but harder to kill and obviously have more potential for killing. I recommend 2 squads of these tooled out with flamers and taking the combi flamers put of the bike squads, replacing them with combi meltas. 1 flame attack isn't much good against a horde but 5 (combi flamer on the lord) will make em toasty toasty.

Good luck bike armies are awesome.
AF

It's a point of view difference then.
A bike squad (max) with fist is there for defensive purposes really.

Bikers are not a combat oriented squad, but if they need to they can perform...due to the close range shooting.
Tag on 2 Attacks per, Captain, fist, and using defense as an offensive buff to combat resolution, bikers are decent units at cleaning up in combat.

Typhoons are expensive, but you get what you pay for.
The range fills in a niche bikers need.
The flexibility matches the bikers'.
The speed matches the bikers'.
Able to go full reserves as well.

There is alot going for them, but I agree, they are expensive.

While meltas are not the answer to all things.
Their short range also makes them defensive weapons, and the Typhoons are much better at taking out transports due to the extra shot and without needing to get close.

Command Bikers are not 'harder to kill'. Because they have essentially half as many wounds with FNP, they are essentially the same durability....except they fail against str 8 weapons/low ap. In which case you are forced to get stormshields, which are not cheap.

2 Squads is (IMO) poor advice. It's no longer a balanced list, it's a gimmick. In addition, it requires TWO Captains(at the cheapest)...which are points black holes to be honest. In addition, one will run out of points for the rest of the list. The command squad on bikes fully kitted out for combat/specials have a failing in that they only have 5 models... in addition, their offensive punch is not that much honestly as they favor taking on other low model count but tough-ish units, making themselves quite nichey.

What I will say to the OP is to be very cautious about your decisions...a 'biker' lists flip flops alot as it is honestly a fragile list. It is not forgiving when mistakes are made at any point.

I'm a proponent of the max-sized biker squads, with attached attack bikes. I just really like being able to halve my maximum KP in my army when needed. 8 bikers and an attack bike is VERY hard for a lot of armies to get rid of 100% in Annihilation missions. The ability to combat squad is also wonderful in objective games.

The one thing I just don't like in any of these lists are the Command Squads. They're just so very bloated. Claws, shields, AND a hammer? Too much gear for my tastes. One S8+ pie plate, and you're risking like 50+points per failed 3++ save.

Sanct
about typhoons: why do bikers need long range shooting? Land speeders deep strike. The near certainty of killing an armored target w two tl (vulkan) meltas more than makes up for the risk of deviation. Meltas don't answer everything but they answer an awful lot...

I don't believe in defense. At all. Ever. Every unit is expendable provided that the loss it inflicts hurts them more than the loss I suffer when they die. Their purpose is to deliver the weapon if they get to do it twice cool. This kind of approach keeps alot of my units perfectly safe bc going all offense cripples the opponents ability to hurt me in return.

To your point about command squads. Well that's true if you're running big squads of normal bikers. But why would you do that? 4 guys 2 meltas 1 combi melta attack bike multi melta. 2 squads of those cost only a little more than a 10 man squad of normal bikes and clearly have more offensive potential (assume all the meltas are twin linked) the purpose of a unit any unit is to deliver offensive potential. A command squad is very clearly stronger than a normal squad for this. Yes buy them storm shields. Of course.

as far as scoring units idk not many opponents will concentrate on spud bikers when there 6 land speeders a command squad and a land raider full of assault terminators. If they do you can just run away. My spud bikers (all 8 of em) tend to live the longest and thus score not bc they're hard to kill on their own but bc my opponent had their hands full.

Yes the army requires constant decision making and you have to get it right. No doubt. I like that the army allows you the flexibility to change plans most armies are basically committed by turn 2 and can't extract.
AF

Cool, I want some of that stuff. Twinlinked meltas despite having two captains on a bike. Not to mention Speeders that deep strikes in on the exact turn that I need them.
Since when does a command squad bike cost the same as a regular bike? 41=/=25...

Are you seriously running two MMs on your speeders and expecting to use both? Wtf kinda opponents do you face?

If all the scoring wounds you have is 8 bikes your oppoenent must be a moron to not take them out.

All this said, Im not a fan of running maxed bike squads (I run 5 bikes+AB) but I dont go around pretending that my smallish squad is the end all be all. I can still see the merit of having one larger bike squad. Running 2 MSUs is most certainly not enough no matter what else you might have in your army.

@AF:
Deep Striking Land Speeders is rarely the route I see competitieve players taking. Not saying you are, but I only see newcomers use that option.
It's nice, but it has far too many variable to go your way to see the investment payoff.
It's not to say it can't, it's just not desirable as I see it.

Vulkan, (a bit Off-Topic) becomes a very specific list...one which has little wiggle room and runs a bit differently than a Vanilla Bike list, something I won't get into here.

Meltas are too short ranged to be relied upon (on bikers) you yourself have cautioned against getting too close to be stuck in combat....and meltas = combat range for the enemy.

Suicide squads are cool, but not too constructive with bikers in most cases as the model count is low....and those are your scoring models.

When I say defensive, I don't think we are on the same page. Defensive is used when I have no choice. Bikers can play the kiting game...and it's usually the go to (obviously it's not always used, but a good portion of games it's best).
The type of play you are describing seems more geared towards gunlines...and it can work, but it's one of many ways bikers are used......and to be a flexible player, they all need to be used with respect to mission, board, deployment, and opponent variables taken into account.

MSU is a playstyle.
There are pros and cons which have been done to death (of MSU in general).

Command Squads are not stronger than the normal squad...they are just different.
Bikers can get 2 meltas, combi-melta, and the MM.
The MM is infinitely better in the range department, etc. etc. They are different.

Storm Shields make them expensive...and you are have specials and SS, and no combat weapons yet, which makes them equivalent to a full biker squad combat power....which isn't much.

Now you are taking on a Land Raider with Termies...what points are we talking about... just throwing things on top with little introduction and then trhowing Vulkan on top is not helping you position, it's more like a reverse arguement where we are working to the beginning.

A vulkan list is a very specific list... it's not a Vanilla List... obviously it works differently. A vulkan list allows less flexibility as I see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Tedurur:

A kitted command squad generally runs around 300 points...which is the same points as a full biker squad or 2 MSU squads.
It's not the base costs, it's the equipment thrown on top to make them worthy of inclusion.
_____________________

On a side note, just mentioning and covering my bases that my advice is from a Vanilla Biker list perspective.

Ted
who said anything about 2 captains on a bike? 1 command squad per hq.

You can deep strike the land speeders or not. They're fast skimmers they'll get there.

As for points costs count the attack bike and special weapons too. 115 base 90 bikes 20 flamers for the command squad = 235, 115 base 50 attack bike 20 meltas 10 combi meltas = 195 for the normal bikers. Like I said more or less the same cost.

No I am not running 2 meltas on the land speeders I didn't say that either. 1 melta 1 flamer.

As far as scoring units they have a 3++ cover save and 24" mobility. If you can't keep them alive *you're* a moron. Then again if they want to shoot spuds while I'm hitting them w flamestorm cannons assault terminators land speeders and a tooled out command squad cool. I'll table them.

AF

Well, they still go down to weight of fire.
It's not so much the T5 and 3+/3++, it's the lower model count that balance things out.

The 3++ is ace.
The great movement is ace as well.

But it's not always the winner.

For typhoons vs MM/HF tornado speeders i was running 4 typhoons and 2 MM/HF speeders in my mech list for a while but lately since i got 2 ravenwing battle forces i put together two more typhoons and have been using them in my mech list and with much greater success without the MM/HF speeders. The typhoons threaten everything in this game short of a monolith or a land raider. There versatility is ridiculous as squad of two can hang back and ignore MEQ armor and torrent them down with HB, or put a ton of wounds on a hoard with 4 templates/HB or put 4 str 8 shots on AV 13 and below while av 11 and below can also get a few more glances from the HB again. I can also move 12 and still threaten infantry though MEQ not as much and now take side armor shots on tanks most of which are are armor 12 or below. Finally i can move 18-24 and block movement on land raiders giving the rest of my army one more turn to deal with the rest of his army or move into position and around turn 4-5 i can start boosting around to contest points.

For 90 points i think there one of the most versatile things in the entire SM book and their range + turboboost make up for their crap armor. MM/HF on the other hand ive found constantly gets torrented down by low st glancing shots since you have to get so close to use your weapons and its usually obvious what your gunning for. The end game contesting works for the typhoon because by that time there's 0-2 turns to shoot it off a point where as the MM/HF spends most of the game in range of most of the opponents army with AV 10. That's just my experience so far with speeders.

Ive been thinking about trying to include as much of what other people are saying while including as much of what i want into the list. this is what I've come up with so far.

This one has 5 small units with maximum special weapons fire its got 25 scoring troops.

HQ

Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, hellfire rounds - 190

Command Squad with melta gun x3, lightning claws x3, storm shield x4, thunder hammer, company standard, bikes - 385

Troops

Bike Squad + attack bike + 1 bike with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 195

Bike Squad + attack bike + 1 bike with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 195

Bike Squad + attack bike + 1 bike with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 195

Bike Squad + attack bike + 1 bike with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 195

Bike Squad + attack bike + 1 bike with plasma gun x2, multi-melta, - 195

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

The next one has less scoring troops, special weapons and units with 4 units of 28 scoring troops but is a bit more resilient


HQ

Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, hellfire rounds - 190

Command Squad with melta gun x3, lightning claws x3, storm shield x4, thunder hammer, company standard, bikes - 385

Troops

Bike Squad + attack bike + 3 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 245

Bike Squad + attack bike + 3 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 245

Bike Squad + attack bike + 3 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, combi-flamer - 245

Bike Squad + attack bike + 3 bikes with melta gun x2, multi-melta, melta bombs - 240

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon X2 - 180

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

Both lists have plenty of stand off shooting, speed and a solid counter attack unit. For the time being what do you guys think is better? And when i can get more money (likely way after my wedding next month) do you think i should drop the speeders and buy more bikes/an additional command squad or drop the command squad and go with even more speeders?

Sanct
about land speeders: well deep striking them is the way to keep them from being shot up. As a general rule I don't like reserves or deviation, but what's the alternative? I'm earnestly seeking suggestions bc it's true it has problems. I'm not convinced though that you need long range shooting.

about vulkan: I'm assuming vulkan in all my suggestions. He's the best sm hq why wouldn't you run him? I don't really have much to say about a bike list that doesn't run him... mobility is nice.

About meltas: well I try to stack up 2 or 3 squads to make sure I wipe out the squad or so cripple it that even bikes can take them in cc. If I can't do that then yeah the squad is more or less on suicide duty

yes the army is geared to fight guard gunlines. Part of that is local environment part just general principle: gear up to fight the strongest codex (guard) and you'll probably be able to fight everyone else too.

What's msu? (i'm chatting from a mobile can't drag over the abreviation)

yes command squads are different. As in better

I see your point about throwing in vulkan and a land raider being confusing. This is my biker list and what I'm advocating for.

Vulkan
captain bike combo flamer relic blade
command squad bikes 4 flamers 4 lightning claws 4 storm shields
5 assault terminators 2 th/ss 3 lc land raider redeemer
2 bike squads 4 bikers 2 meltaguns 1 combi melta attack bike multi melta
3 land speeder squadrons 2 land speeders each multi melta heavy flamer.

Yes it's low on bodies it can be a fragile but it's high risk high reward

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ted
who said anything about 2 captains on a bike? 1 command squad per hq.

You can deep strike the land speeders or not. They're fast skimmers they'll get there.

As for points costs count the attack bike and special weapons too. 115 base 90 bikes 20 flamers for the command squad = 235, 115 base 50 attack bike 20 meltas 10 combi meltas = 195 for the normal bikers. Like I said more or less the same cost.

No I am not running 2 meltas on the land speeders I didn't say that either. 1 melta 1 flamer.

As far as scoring units they have a 3++ cover save and 24" mobility. If you can't keep them alive *you're* a moron. Then again if they want to shoot spuds while I'm hitting them w flamestorm cannons assault terminators land speeders and a tooled out command squad cool. I'll table them.

AF

You said that you used two command squads, that requires you to field two captains. In which case you have no room for Vulkan so no TL meltas/flamers.

They are indeed fast skimmers, which is why its a bad idea to deep strike them.
So you run your speeders in squads of two, thats how you get two shots, ok I get it.

Bikes are 90pts base, so you pay 140pts for 5 bikes. I did a misstake when calcing, but you seem to forget that the command squad is not scoring. Your points are still off and on top of that the roles of the two squads are totally different...

I thought you said you used your bikes to shoot stuff. Since you have meltas on them that would mean that you are within 12" (atleast) 6 T5 sv 3 wounds will die to small arms fire at that range.

As I said previously, MSU is not a bad idea. Running 8 or 12 wounds in a 2k list is...

While im not advocating running vulcan in a bike list he can take a command squad on bikes since hes a captain and he doesn't have to start the game linked up with his command squad.

Oh and MSU is multiple small unit

He is not a Captain, he is a forge father so he doesnt get a command squad nor a honour guard squad. Otherwise you are correct tho


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, sorry for semi-rerailing the thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the list I like it appart form the expensive command squad. I would like to try and incorporate a Librarian in the list, 135 pts for a Mobile hood and NullZone and Avenger is pretty damn nice and needed for a bike list.

While TL meltas are nice in a bike list, loosing combat tactics is quite bad. Less so if you run suicide squads but its still a major drawback.

@tedurur:

MSU is not a bad idea. Running 8 or 12 wounds in a 2k list is...

Simple and effective.

@AF:

Reserves is just a tool, much like Deepstrike. As said, bikers care not for what you like or dislike, you bend to them…and playing a flexible game is the win condition.
Typhoons go the route of Reserves.
MM can go for deepstrike, but as you said they can get into position with just moving normally…if you have so much target saturation, then Speeders being a target shouldn’t be a big problem.

As for long ranged shooting, it depends on the points…and I am not talking about a Vulkan list.
A biker list needs to be flexible, which means there are times when you do not approach….but with close range as the primary means of offensive power…that means it’s neutered. With the Typhoons you can still reach out and touch someone, which a pretty reliable weapon.
With Vulkan you really don’t have that luxury most of the time.

‘Best’/’Better’ they are subjective labels, there are multiple reasons why I don’t run Vulkan, but as said, it’s more off-topic that it already is.

As for tailoring to local meta, sure. I make lists for all-comers no matter what they bring, I can deal with it.

MSU = multiple small units.

Your list, soo… you are running only 2 bike squads and don’t like reserves? I don’t really think it’s high reward... it is geared towards a sort of ‘total war’ gameplay, where it forsakes objectives in favor of facebeating….which is fine, but it is a pretty inflexible list compared to what I assumed this thread to be about a Vanilla list.

@cromwest:

Your description of the Typhoon is spot on. When it comes to cost, it’s a personal call. Most will say it’s worth what you get. Others will err to more economical choices that are prob. less flexible.

As for the lists, it’s up to you man, we’ve…(for the most part) put down our cards. The best things about hobbies like these (vs. video games) is that it’s yours.
Yours to choose. Yours to paint/convert.
I suggest proxy and try it out, the most rewarding thing is working things out. The suggestions here are just several items on the menu.

Ted
you don't need 2 captains just two hqs
about the speeder and 2 shots. Right. Sorry should have been clear about that.
It's true that the command squad isn't scoring. I try to posture the army so they don't have time to worry about the 10 guys who are.
I do use bikeS to shoot stuff but I try to send scoring units to parts of the board where I'm pretty certain there won't be any retaliation.... Alternativeli in annihilation they're just another kill point in objective games you can combat squad them all the melta guns in one half bolter guy and attack bike in the other then suicide the melta half and hide the attack bike half. The multi melta is long range enough to contribute alot of the time even when hiding.
AF