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I just grabbed a couple of Hellhounds, so I'm moving up to 1850 points. This is meant to be a general all-comers list.

HQ:
Company Command Squad
-3x Plasma Gun
-Medic
-Astropath
-Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)
210 pts

Troops:
Veterans
-3x Meltaguns
-Demolitions
-Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)
200 pts

Veterans
-3x Plasma Guns
-Carapace Armor
-Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)
200 pts

Veterans
-3x Meltaguns
-Demolitions
130 pts

Fast Attack:
Vendetta
130 pts

Hellhound
-Smoke Launchers
-Hull Multimelta
150 pts

Hellhound
-Smoke Launchers
-Hull Multimelta
150 pts

Elites:
Guardsman Marbo
65 pts

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Hull Lascannon
165 pts

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Hull Lascannon
165 pts

Manticore
-Hull Heavy Flamer
160 pts

Basilisk
-Hull Heavy Flamer
125 pts

1850 points

First I would drop the med-pack as getting FNP for 30pts just to prevent a few plasma burns is a waste.

Now with the grenadier doctrine on your plasma vets. Drop this as well considering they will be the only units that will have a 4+ armor save which for 30pts is not the greatest. Also I would drop the demolition doctine off your melta squads as the only transport that has a reasonable chance of getting a veteran unit with demolistion near the right units is a valkyrie or vendetta.

Now you'll have 120 extra points to spend at this point.

Your list is really lacking in the troop choice department for a 1850 list. If you want a semi-competetive IG list you're going to want atleast 5 troop choice on the field to claim objectives.

With your heavy support choices I would drop your basilisk as squadron your LRBT's is a horrible idea. Dropping your basilisk will give you 245pts to spend on troops

Hm. I'm using what I have, I do have enough extra guard for a minimum-sized platoon. That's about it, though, I have no other vehicles or transports.

Gavo wrote:Hm. I'm using what I have, I do have enough extra guard for a minimum-sized platoon. That's about it, though, I have no other vehicles or transports.

Ah I know how that feels. I had a 1.5k veteran list that only consist of two veteran squads and a CCS

I have to ask is there a reason why you're doing a 1850pts list? Is this for an up coming tourney or is this the standard point games your local hobby store plays at?

ishanmaster wrote:

Gavo wrote:Hm. I'm using what I have, I do have enough extra guard for a minimum-sized platoon. That's about it, though, I have no other vehicles or transports.

Ah I know how that feels. I had a 1.5k veteran list that only consist of two veteran squads and a CCS

I have to ask is there a reason why you're doing a 1850pts list? Is this for an up coming tourney or is this the standard point games your local hobby store plays at?

My gaming group feels like scaling up, I just got 2 new hellhounds. We used to play at 1500, now we're trying 1850. I could make a 2k list, but it would be even worse than this list. I'd add 10 ratlings and bolters to my LRBT.

I see, well there's not much you can do then other then see if people want to still play 1.5k games over start playing some 1k 2v2 games while you slowly build your army.

Now with your hellhounds I would exchange them for banewolves as they make most MEQ armies cry.

ishanmaster wrote:I see, well there's not much you can do then other then see if people want to still play 1.5k games over start playing some 1k 2v2 games while you slowly build your army.

Now with your hellhounds I would exchange them for banewolves as they make most MEQ armies cry.

I would too, but there's only 2 MEQ players in my group, and I only play with one list. I could make a separate list for them...eh, I don't like tailoring too much, I find the hellhound to be a better all-rounder.

Have you used the banewolf? if so, how was the effectiveness?

I've used the banewolve only a few times but each time it has made its points back by taking out one of my enemies powerful units.

Yeah, if only the could outflank and wreck Devestator squads hiding in the backfield.

I was actually going to say everything ishanmaster said in his first post, so yeah, do that.

Gavo could you list all the models do currently own so I can get a rough idea of what you have to play around with?

ishanmaster wrote:Gavo could you list all the models do currently own so I can get a rough idea of what you have to play around with?

Sure!

1 CCS (I have Creed and Kell, but I use them as a Company Commander and a Regimental Standard, respectively.
5 squads of infantry
6 plasma gunners
6 melta gunners
2 grenade launchers
2 flamers
2 autocannon weapon teams
1 mortar team
6 lascannon teams
2 LRMBT
2 Hellhounds/Banewolves/Devil Dogs
3 Chimeras
1 Vendetta
1 Manticore
1 Basilisk

I really need more infantry and chimeras.

Oh wow do you have a lot to play with. Here's a list that I just created in 10 minutes with what you have that I think would be better then your first list.

HQ -
CCS w/ standard, melta bomb, & 2 flamers - 80pts (this unit will stay behind your line infantry to support through Ld and used for counter charge)

Elite -
None

Troops -
PCS w/ 4 melta guns & chimera - 125pts (this unit will move up with your plasma vets and provide some anti-tank support)
PIS w/ GL, AC, & melta bomb - 70pts (your infantry squads will provide firing support for the rest of your army)
PIS w/ GL, AC, & melta bomb - 70pts
HWS w/ 3 lascannons - 105pts (though not the best choice for anti-tank units but having two 3 lascannon squads will make any enemy think twice before breaking cover)
HWS w/ 3 lascannons - 105pts
SWS w/ 2 melta guns & demo charge - 75pts (your sws will ride in the vendetta to provide fast anti-tank response or used for a last minute objective grab)

Veteran squad w/ 3 plasma guns & chimera - 170pts (the veteran squads will be your rapid response units to counter enemy movements or provide additional firepower on a target)
Veteran squad w/ 3 plasma guns & chimera - 170pts

Fast Attack -
Vendetta gunship - 130pts (do I need to say anything on this?!)

Hellhound/Bane wolf - 130pts (personally I would use the bane wolfs for more anti-MEQ firepower but if you feel more comfortable with hellhounds then use whatever you like)
Hellhound/Bane wolf - 130pts

Heavy Support -
LRBT w/ hull lascannon - 165pts (More dakka!)
LRBT w/ hull lascannon - 165pts

Manticore - 160pts (a most have!)

Total - 1850pts

Now this list gives you 8 scoring units compared to your 3 scoring units from your first list plus this you now have a nice balance of vehicles and infantry on the board. You'll be fielding 9 vehicles and 68 infantry models which isn't bad for a 1850pts list.

Oh also you'll notice I equipped some of your infantry with melta bombs, theses are nice surprise items for dreads and any vehicles that get too close to your line

Wow. Thanks a ton. What about Smoke Launchers on the Hellhound/Bane Wolf? It would cost 10 points total...

Anyone care to comment on the second list?

This is looking pretty solid. The one thing I'm not all that happy with is the 4 HS slots. If you pair the manticore with the basilisk you will be much better off than pairing the russes, but the aforementioned artillery pieces don't squad that well due to the basilisk's need to start moving around to direct fire after like turn 2 (which stops your manticore from firing in barrage mode).

Drop the basilisk (you already have battlecannons), and turn it into another vet squad with a chimera (by getting rid of upgrades that will barely be used like the hull HH multimeltas and the vets' doctrines), and I think you're good to go.

Ailaros wrote:This is looking pretty solid. The one thing I'm not all that happy with is the 4 HS slots. If you pair the manticore with the basilisk you will be much better off than pairing the russes, but the aforementioned artillery pieces don't squad that well due to the basilisk's need to start moving around to direct fire after like turn 2 (which stops your manticore from firing in barrage mode).

Drop the basilisk (you already have battlecannons), and turn it into another vet squad with a chimera (by getting rid of upgrades that will barely be used like the hull HH multimeltas and the vets' doctrines), and I think you're good to go.

Have you seen the second list? That's looking to be what I'm going to use. And you can't squad a Manticore.

by "second list" do you mean the one that ishanmaster posted, or the one at the top that's been edited?

Ailaros wrote:by "second list" do you mean the one that ishanmaster posted, or the one at the top that's been edited?

Hey Ailaros! I believe he means my list.

PS. Also I'm going to be gone all this week so I won't be able comment anything until next Sunday when I get back so if this post dies before I come back I'll PM you gavo on my input.

Ailaros wrote:by "second list" do you mean the one that ishanmaster posted, or the one at the top that's been edited?

Yeah, the one posted by ishanmaster.

Ah. My only problem with the second list is that it's sort of all over the place. You've got a static platoon here and a couple of AV12's charging there, and just one skimmer, etc.

With this lack of focus, your opponent can just pick off the couple of offending units and then be much better off. I'd narrow the number of different types of units down to overwhelm your opponent a little more. Redundancy > diversity.

Gavo wrote:

Have you used the banewolf? if so, how was the effectiveness?

The Banewolf is ranged Template Unlike the Hell hound. it's Str 1 AP 3 (marine killer) and it wounds on a 2+ against models with a toughness value. It's very good if your able to get it real close, but it's Armor 12 10 10 so it will get shot up really easily, unless you get creed and outflank a squadron of them.

Hey Gavo how's tricks?

I don't think there is anything really wrong with the list ishanmaster gave you the crtique I could give would mainly based on personal predjudices rather than any hard math/performance based data.

like i'm not a fan of plasma without carapace, I can see the logic of dropping it and freeing up the points but persoanlly I seem to roll an exceptionally large number of 1's when I use plasma. Saying that i've given CCS carapace and a medic and still lost men to gets hot so i'm not sure the extra point on protection is worth the points (I only take plasma on vehicles now)

I'm not a huge fan of LOS HWS they seem a little too easy to kill.

if you do use the list I'd stick with Hellhounds.

On the whole the list looks like it could work and its using models you have

Oh almost forgot congrats on the hellhounds, 1st vehicle I bought I use mine as devildog currently

My thoughts on these lists.

In OP's list:

I'd suggest dropping the Medic. As mentioned, more pew pew is almost always better than saving a model or two. Plus you save 15 pts. Also, why the Astropath? I only see the Vendetta outflanking, and I almost always prefer them to be shooting from turn 1, myself.

I haven't had much good results from Doctrines, myself, but I can see a case for Melta Vets having Demolitions. If it really fits your playstyle, then have fun with it. I would, however, give the free shotguns to the other Vets if you're using Meltas.

I <3 Heavy Bolter Sponsons on Vendettas. A lot. It gives six very cheap shots that are good for changing the bird from hunting heavy targets to having more options. Just make sure you don't fire them if wound allocation can ruin your chances of AP2 wounds on important models.

In ishanmaster's list:

With 2 HWS (which I generally avoid in the first place), I'd seriously contemplate having your CCS equipped with a Heavy Weapon, and sit back and issue orders to the HWS. It looks like you want to give it assault weapons and then have it sit in back. Why not give it something to fire while it's back there?

Like I said, I don't really like HWS too much. The only heavy weapon I like giving BS3 models is an autocannon. When you compare the 3 LC HWS to a Vendetta, it becomes pretty apparent that it's a much better deal unless you can reliably TL with orders. I do, however, like your thought that 6 LCs will keep the enemy afrad to come out to play. I'd like to know how effective that turns out.

Again, gotta love HBs on Vendettas.

Hellhound vs Banewolf. I've been back and forth on this a bit. The benefit of a Hellhound is its range. I, personally, play 'Nids more often than not. The extra range from the Hellhound seems likely to get eaten up pretty quickly if they get a good fleet roll. (I'm not great at keeping as much distance as I should) In a case like this, I'd probably go for the Banewolf with a Heavy Flamer, since it'll probably kill more reliably. If you're facing an enemy without as much ability to cover 12"+, I'm thinking Hellhound with Multimelta is a better choice. I say Multimelta since you'll want to stay mobile, and so not fire both weapons, so why not get versatility?

Cambak wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Have you used the banewolf? if so, how was the effectiveness?

The Banewolf is ranged Template Unlike the Hell hound. it's Str 1 AP 3 (marine killer) and it wounds on a 2+ against models with a toughness value. It's very good if your able to get it real close, but it's Armor 12 10 10 so it will get shot up really easily, unless you get creed and outflank a squadron of them.

The banewolf is 12/12/10.

but it's gun has a range of 7", which means you're going to start getting attacks on that AV10 very shortly after you get a single shot off, if you even get a single shot off.

Hellhounds are better against everything compared to a banewolf. The fact that the banewolf is AP3 is countered by the fact that the hellhound will get to shoot several times more per game than the banewolf.

In regards to your first list:

I'll agree that the medic, carapace armor and astropath are probably not necessary. I often find, however, that demolitions is great on melta-vets, because their chimera's get charged a lot by close combat troops. Even if the chimera gets popped, throwing that charge at a bunch of packed in assaulters is a nice payback. It might be a little high for 30 points, but it depends on your environment.

The Medic, Astropath, and Carapace armor on the plasma vets run you 90 points. I'm going to suggest that you also lose the Basilisk. Ailaros is right in that it's areas of expertise are already well covered in your army with the Manticore and Battlecannons.

215 Points.

Your battlecannons, hull lascannons and multi-meltas, and Manticore, will neutralize a reasonable amount of armor at 1850, but your issue is scoring. You've got three units, but the problem is they're also front-line firepower units, so they see a lot of heat by the end of the game.

Scoring options for 215 points:

You can get a platoon with whatever mix of heavy and special weapons you have left. This will get you three scoring units and some heavy weapons if you want them. I encourage you, however to consider taking 2 Penal Legion squads. This would give you a total of 5 scoring units and still give you 55 points to put back into whatever you thought was most important. I understand a lot of people have problems with Penal Legion, but I've found the tactical flexibility they provide makes them a joy to run.

What about the second list? Any thoughts on that one?