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**Are folks going to run two Varghulfs?
**What about two corpse carts?
**A mob of 100 skellies or zombies 10x10?
**How many necros?

I had the misfortune of playing against VC in previous additions with my greenskins (gobbo heavy) and it was always horrible. Not really fun for anybody. Fear and terror and auto-routes and all kinds of horribleness when your leadership is 6-- 7 with a boss. The VC players probably don't like the psych. nerf, but it was needed.

VC got hammered on all sides. Not only did fear get nerfed, so did casting and what spells you can take. Gone are the days of 1 dicing spells. Also gone are min blocks for in game expansion. 25 percent MUST be spent on core.

Add in how bad VC core infantry is, I think you can argue that VC is not a top army in 8th by any stretch.

So If you like the army, look towards EBay in the coming months for the flood of VC stuff I'm betting is going to be dumped by players unwilling to try and adapt something workable out of them. (and there is a few things that can redeem them, but that isn't what bandwagon players are going to do)

Ghouls aren't too shabby core choices and 100's of zombies don't need much magic to be annoying.

Ghouls aren't too shabby core choices and 100's of zombies don't need much magic to be annoying.

notabot187 wrote:VC got hammered on all sides. Not only did fear get nerfed, so did casting and what spells you can take. Gone are the days of 1 dicing spells. Also gone are min blocks for in game expansion. 25 percent MUST be spent on core.

Add in how bad VC core infantry is, I think you can argue that VC is not a top army in 8th by any stretch.

So If you like the army, look towards EBay in the coming months for the flood of VC stuff I'm betting is going to be dumped by players unwilling to try and adapt something workable out of them. (and there is a few things that can redeem them, but that isn't what bandwagon players are going to do)

I think everyone agrees they got nerfed, but as I said from fighting them before, they needed it. I'm starting a theme-based ("ghost ship") army using VC rules so I'm curious as to what veteran VC players think is most effective in the 8th edition. Massive units of skeleton spear-men seem promising. With horde, step-up and spears such a unit could hit with quite a few attacks, and act as a tar pit. . . in theory?

No doubt they will be dropping from the uber-tier, but I wonder what builds and tactics stalwart VC players will adopt.

Really suggest keeping to hand weapon and shield for Skeletons. Their attacks don't do enough to be worth spears.

The horde rule isn't going to really be all that great. More crap attacks are going to do just that: crap. Add in the fact that you can only get 7 models wide against most units, and you are wasting quite a few points on that formation. It MIGHT work with cheaper units, like gobos and skaven (and maybe marauders and empire state troops), but VC core is pretty pricey at 8 points per model considering how bad they are.

I will second Nitros14's suggestion about HW/S with skeletons. You take skeletons because they are more durable than other choices, not for their attacks. If you want attacks you go with ghouls.

As for the tarpit thing, yeah, VC core tarpit pretty well. Its about the only thing they do well. (and with the opponent getting more attacks, not as well as they used to)

Horde is fine while your Skeletons are still 30+ strong, swift/combat reform to shorten ranks when you take casualties.

Except that horde leaves you open to dangerous multi charges, once you are engaged by two units you can't shorten up to a reasonable formation.

A few things VC CAN do. Vampire Knights are good...even after the charge. 10 (5x2) while expensive, is nasty. But watch out for war machines.

Also, the Black Coach is amazing still. Consider.

Ghouls are good for a large (I would say 20-25) flanker. Tar pit them with skellies and flank with ghouls.

Lastly, Varghulfs and Vampire Lords are still solid.

VC - Go 5 Wide and 8-10 deep.
Now you have more ranks and are stubborn.

Flanking with either version of Undead is problematic.

Flanking as a strategy only works when you have more units than the other guy, or can create a refused flank with either speed, shooting, or deployment.

You can't flank if there is another block sitting right next to what you want to flank after all.

Da_Viking wrote:VC - Go 5 Wide and 8-10 deep.
Now you have more ranks and are stubborn.

Hell yes we're stubborn. Now we get our unmodified leadership on the leadership tests that we never have to take because we're unbreakable.

Nitros14 wrote:

Da_Viking wrote:VC - Go 5 Wide and 8-10 deep.
Now you have more ranks and are stubborn.

Hell yes we're stubborn. Now we get our unmodified leadership on the leadership tests that we never have to take because we're unbreakable.

WORD!!

I think it'll be easy for VC to handle most things. Keep your unit sizes up and use summoned zombies to take away steadfast.

What undead should really worry about are miscasts killing their generals....

Spellbound wrote:use summoned zombies to take away steadfast.

The main issue with this is that then they can direct all their attacks at the Zombies, kill 20 of them and force ALL the units in your multiple combat to take 10+ crumbling wounds that cannot be saved by regen or ward now.

uh... they don't get supporting attacks to the flank, so they'll only have like 5-6 attacks. Sure they'll kill some, but hopefully not enough.

GRANTED, taking away steadfast is not exactly much use if the enemy starts winning combat, so you'll still need a combined arms approach in order to win. Give the zombies an armour save using magic, or give the enemy a -1 to hit in cc, or reduce their leadership so it's easier to fail a fear test and become WS1, etc.

Honestly a unit of skeletons with Occam's Mind Razor and the Helm of commandment with spears while the general is nearby will be quite the nasty unit indeed. VC will depend on magic and characters to buff units to the point where they'll be able to win combat. Zombies are just there to remove steadfast by charging the flank.

You're raising 50 Zombies on their flank?

Flank disruption does not remove steadfast, only having more ranks.

Ah, because rank bonus != ranks, I see.

Well then, raise them and send them in the front. If you're already engaged, then this should result in clipping. Not many enemies will be able to direct attacks towards the zombies, and then sure keep spamming nehek until the zombies have more ranks than they do. Done!

VC have a leadership ten general using the Lore of Death which is a pretty nasty character assassination lore. He will be at a huge advantage against enemy wizard lords and BSBs, and killing the enemy general or their magic phase should prove to be very useful for the VC player. Additionally, I can't see anything that would've made Wraiths any less rock/paper/scissors than before. They will totally decimate the enemy or they will be challenging to use. Either way, VC haven't changed in that respect.

Naturally the fear and terror were nerfed massively and Zombies are even harder to use than before. That said, what I've been looking at for a decent enough VC list, would in a nutshell be the following:

vc lord, arts, lore, lord of dead, helm, arkhan, wristbands
wight king, bsb, 4+ ward banner, horse, lance, etc.
necromancer, all 3 spells, dispel scroll, ironcurse icon

30 skeletons, fc
23 skeletons, fc, magic resistance banner
60+ zombies
3 bats
13 knights, champ, standard, hatred banner
5 wraiths + banshee
5 wraiths + banshee

It's pretty funny what the Banshees can do to units that have Doom and Darkness cast on them. March+shoot every turn is nasty and they will be dominating enemy backfields before long. The lore of death complements the VC army perfectly because it also makes the fear and terror more useful.

VC aren't going to be the unstoppable powerhouse they once were but the fact is that a replacement for the throne that the previous 'big three' were holding has yet to emerge and it very well might be that *gasp* we are actually looking at a more balanced game this time around.