Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Quick question,

I tank shocked my friends dreadnaught in a game today, and he elected to us "death or glory" with his meltagun.

his meltagun penetrated and blew up my battlewagon.

my question: do they 2d6 S10 attacks still apply? or are they null? (due to stopping the tank in its tracks before it actually got there)

Answer ASAP please!

Yes, they still apply.

Check the official faq first next time
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m970066a_FAQ_Orks_Feb2010

Only the regular ramming attack doesn't apply. The deffrolla hits 2d6 times, as normal.

If a skimmer dodges the BW successfully, do you still resolve the DeffRolla hit?

striderx wrote:If a skimmer dodges the BW successfully, do you still resolve the DeffRolla hit?

-Hands striderx a can opener for his can o' worms-

The answer is Yes/No/Maybe*.

*Delete as applicable.

In all seriousness, the rules simply (yet again) do not take this into account.

striderx wrote:If a skimmer dodges the BW successfully, do you still resolve the DeffRolla hit?

I have always played that it doesnt. The shock was successfully dodged so I dont feel the rolla should get its hits in...but as gwar! stated its not really in the rules so just come to a conclusion with your opponent first.

Shake Zoola wrote:

striderx wrote:If a skimmer dodges the BW successfully, do you still resolve the DeffRolla hit?

I have always played that it doesnt. The shock was successfully dodged so I dont feel the rolla should get its hits in...but as gwar! stated its not really in the rules so just come to a conclusion with your opponent first.

While I can agree with this in Spirit; the Deffrolla still does 1d6 to a Unit that steps out of the way(voluntarily or by Fall back), and as said Earlier still does 2d6 to any unit that Death or Glory's even if they Stop/destroy/explode the Wagon, so reason would have it that the skimmer (even though it got out of the way of the wagon's main hull) still gets caught by the rolla itself(as apparently even when something realizes a big Wagon is about to run them over they Forget/don't realize that the Giant spiky staem roller in front of said wagon is hitting them first)


I could just see that, a unit of guardsmen standing around "Sarge, there is a Battle wagon headed straight for us!" Sgt Says: Wait for it, wait for it" the deff roller squishes a few men, "Ok, now, get out of the way before the TIRES hit us!"

If the vehicle gets 'stopped' how can the deathroller hit the target unit?

(I don't know what this one ought to be, but my gut tells me probably not. In a fun game I'd say if the DoG was with a gun then no but if with a melee attack or grenade then yes, with no rules basis whatsoever)

Augustus wrote:If the vehicle gets 'stopped' how can the deathroller hit the target unit?

(I don't know what this one ought to be, but my gut tells me probably not. In a fun game I'd say if the DoG was with a gun then no but if with a melee attack or grenade then yes, with no rules basis whatsoever)

Because the FAQ said so.

Codex: Orks FAQ wrote:Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

Also because RAW says so; RAW if you attempt a death or glory the unit takes an extra D6 hits, so stopped or not the unit takes 2d6 hits, first d6 for the Tank shock contacting the unit, the second for the unit deciding to DoG.

For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

ChrisCP wrote:For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

Why? If I take D6 hits, then one of the vehicles has taken damage. The rules explicitly say, "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." It doesn't say "neither vehicle suffers damage with regard to Ram damage". It says "Neither vehicle suffers any damage."

If I take D6 hits and my Falcon takes damage after dodging the ram, the rules have been broken.

The argument is this "On a 1 or 2 the collision proceeds as normal. On a 3+ the skimmer avoids the tank, neither vehicle"
'The collision' is actually a very specific thing, page 69 brb.

Now DR says "Any Tank Shock made by...".
A tankshock has been made - this means DoG could have been done/morale faild etc - once it has been made the unit must suffer D6 hits.
A ram has been 'made' - this could mean a squadron has been rammed, once the collison has been resolved/made - the unit suffers D6.
A Ram has been made - the Skimmer dodged in this one and didn't suffer any damage - ram made > suffers D6 hits.

If a ram has been made and you []don't[/i] take D6 hits then the Defrolla rule has been broken. But if you take no damage from the collision (ram) and as a result of the ram being made you suffer D6 hits you have broken no rule.

ChrisCP wrote:For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

tank shock is not the same as ramming - it is one or the other (tank shock = infantry / ramming = vehicles)

i say you dogde the ram you dont take the hits

Catachan_Devil wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

tank shock is not the same as ramming - it is one or the other (tank shock = infantry / ramming = vehicles)

i say you dogde the ram you dont take the hits

? Are you saying a rectangle is not a type of square? That should be obvious, but Ramming is a type of tankshock - obviously. Also, obviously, you can 'say' whatever you want - but saying it with reasoning is usually more constructive 'kay.

If you say 'I dodged the ram I don't take the hits' then you are implying no tankshock has been made. Because if a tankshock has been made (by DR equipped stuff obviously) you unit suffers D6 hits.

ChrisCP wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

tank shock is not the same as ramming - it is one or the other (tank shock = infantry / ramming = vehicles)

i say you dogde the ram you dont take the hits

? Are you saying a rectangle is not a type of square? That should be obvious, but Ramming is a type of tankshock - obviously. Also, obviously, you can 'say' whatever you want - but saying it with reasoning is usually more constructive 'kay.

If you say 'I dodged the ram I don't take the hits' then you are implying no tankshock has been made. Because if a tankshock has been made (by DR equipped stuff obviously) you unit suffers D6 hits.

Then the rules have been broken either way. Because any way you slice it, you have to add words and meaning to "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." to make sure that the rule is consistent. If my falcon, after dodging a ram, takes damage from a ramming vehicle, then the 'Ramming a Skimmer' rules have been broken. Just like you're implying that if I don't take the D6 hits, the Deff Rolla rules have been broken.

zatchmo wrote:

Augustus wrote:If the vehicle gets 'stopped' how can the deathroller hit the target unit?

(I don't know what this one ought to be, but my gut tells me probably not. In a fun game I'd say if the DoG was with a gun then no but if with a melee attack or grenade then yes, with no rules basis whatsoever)

Because the FAQ said so.

Codex: Orks FAQ wrote:Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

Well that's certainly the way to play it then. But isn't it obvious how physically impossible that is, when a tank that is somehow stopped by an attack prematurely, possibly even immobilized or destroyed, still gets to run over the target?

Absurd.

But, it is Orks. Did I mention I hate that entire army for it's rules like this?

Augustus wrote:

zatchmo wrote:

Augustus wrote:If the vehicle gets 'stopped' how can the deathroller hit the target unit?

(I don't know what this one ought to be, but my gut tells me probably not. In a fun game I'd say if the DoG was with a gun then no but if with a melee attack or grenade then yes, with no rules basis whatsoever)

Because the FAQ said so.

Codex: Orks FAQ wrote:Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

Well that's certainly the way to play it then. But isn't it obvious how physically impossible that is, when a tank that is somehow stopped by an attack prematurely, possibly even immobilized or destroyed, still gets to run over the target?

Absurd.

But, it is Orks. Did I mention I hate that entire army for it's rules like this?

How would it be impossible? IIRC the DoG auto hits leading me to believe that your guy is pretty fething close to his target so he hits and destroys or immobilizes it...Im sure a massive 500 ton hunk of metal traveling at I dont know 85mph isnt going to just stop on a dime. In an explosion the rolla could have detached and kept on a rollin...what I guess Im trying to say is it is possible the vehicle would require a bit of time and distance to stop...hence you still take the extra hits.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:For a while I've left this one alone, mainly because 'everyone' was sooo un-happy with the Ram ruling being 'just used to boost sales' etc etc.

Deff Rolla says "Any Tank Shock made by"
Skimmer says "The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal..."
So - how exactly does dodging a Ramm mean no tank shock was made? It doesn't so D6 hits are still happening... now the dodge rule does say "neither vehicle suffers any damage," Which I will boldly state is with reguard to the Ram 'damage' - A tank shock has still been made and you still need to take D6 hits.

tank shock is not the same as ramming - it is one or the other (tank shock = infantry / ramming = vehicles)

i say you dogde the ram you dont take the hits

? Are you saying a rectangle is not a type of square? That should be obvious, but Ramming is a type of tankshock - obviously. Also, obviously, you can 'say' whatever you want - but saying it with reasoning is usually more constructive 'kay.

If you say 'I dodged the ram I don't take the hits' then you are implying no tankshock has been made. Because if a tankshock has been made (by DR equipped stuff obviously) you unit suffers D6 hits.

Then the rules have been broken either way. Because any way you slice it, you have to add words and meaning to "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." to make sure that the rule is consistent. If my falcon, after dodging a ram, takes damage from a ramming vehicle, then the 'Ramming a Skimmer' rules have been broken. Just like you're implying that if I don't take the D6 hits, the Deff Rolla rules have been broken.

What I'm saying is the "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." is one way a dodge is resolved (the other being failed) - the damage from that action would have been the ram collision. Now the deffrolla effect doesn't kick in until the ram has been made/resolved. So the vehicle take no damage from the ram (effects of dodging a ram) and then takes D6 hits (from a tankshock having been made against a unit. Both rules satisfied and neither overlaps. Otherwise one would be saying D6 hits are an affect of a ram - any ram.

ChrisCP wrote:

What I'm saying is the "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." is one way a dodge is resolved (the other being failed) - the damage from that action would have been the ram collision.

Sure, you can say that, if that's how you'd like to read it. Unfortunately, all the part after "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." is asserted - it's your interpretation. You're asserting that it means the ram. I'm asserting that it means "any damage", like it says.

ChrisCP wrote:Now the deffrolla effect doesn't kick in until the ram has been made/resolved. So the vehicle take no damage from the ram (effects of dodging a ram) and then takes D6 hits (from a tankshock having been made against a unit. Both rules satisfied and neither overlaps. Otherwise one would be saying D6 hits are an affect of a ram - any ram.

But the reason that this sort of "tank shock" works is because tank shock is a form of ram. If a skimmer dodges the ram, it dodges the "tank shock" as well, the special form of ram. The rule works both ways. You get to affect vehicles because your tank shock is also a ram. But it doesn't suddenly stop becoming a ram (a dodgeable one at that) the instant that it hits a skimmer. It's not like it hits with a ram and then it tank shocks. The two are one-in-the-same. If I can dodge a ram, I can dodge a tank shock. So, in dodging a tank shock (or ram, whichever you prefer), "Neither vehicle suffers any damage."

I don't think you're putting enough emphasis on the word any. It doesn't say, "any damage from the ram." It doesn't say "any damage except tank shock damage." It simply says "any damage."

Are the Deff Rolla's hits something that are a product of its ramming (tank shocking) the skimmer? Yes.

If a skimmer dodges the ram (tank shock), does either vehicle take damage. No, "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." No caveats. No exceptions. No vehicle suffers any damage.

puma713 wrote:
But the reason that this sort of "tank shock" works is because tank shock is a form of ram. If a skimmer dodges the ram, it dodges the "tank shock" as well, the special form of ram. The rule works both ways. You get to affect vehicles because your tank shock is also a ram. But it doesn't suddenly stop becoming a ram (a dodgeable one at that) the instant that it hits a skimmer. It's not like it hits with a ram and then it tank shocks. The two are one-in-the-same. If I can dodge a ram, I can dodge a tank shock. So, in dodging a tank shock (or ram, whichever you prefer), "Neither vehicle suffers any damage."

I don't think you're putting enough emphasis on the word any. It doesn't say, "any damage from the ram." It doesn't say "any damage except tank shock damage." It simply says "any damage."

Are the Deff Rolla's hits something that are a product of its ramming (tank shocking) the skimmer? Yes.

If a skimmer dodges the ram (tank shock), does either vehicle take damage. No, "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." No caveats. No exceptions. No vehicle suffers any damage.

The DR hits do not take effect until after the ram has been concluded - ie. both vehicles have already not take any damage ram has been concluded - now that causes D6 hit at Str 10 on the victim unit.

Otherwise to follow your interpretation would mean that neither vehicle suffers any damage [u]ever again[/i].

The DR hits are not part of a ram/ts they happen as the result of a a ram/ts action being concluded (has been made). To apply the rule for the ram damage being negated for both vehicles to deffrolla hits - something that is a product of the ram because-of and after the ram is concluded - is to remove them from their context, the ram, having been concluded , with no damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To say it another way - The DR hits happen after the Ram, they are not part of the Ram damage their something that happens because a Ram has been made - it's done, finished, seen through to the end - so how can you retroactively apply a rule to something, or even to something it was not originally addressing?

ChrisCP wrote:

puma713 wrote:
But the reason that this sort of "tank shock" works is because tank shock is a form of ram. If a skimmer dodges the ram, it dodges the "tank shock" as well, the special form of ram. The rule works both ways. You get to affect vehicles because your tank shock is also a ram. But it doesn't suddenly stop becoming a ram (a dodgeable one at that) the instant that it hits a skimmer. It's not like it hits with a ram and then it tank shocks. The two are one-in-the-same. If I can dodge a ram, I can dodge a tank shock. So, in dodging a tank shock (or ram, whichever you prefer), "Neither vehicle suffers any damage."

I don't think you're putting enough emphasis on the word any. It doesn't say, "any damage from the ram." It doesn't say "any damage except tank shock damage." It simply says "any damage."

Are the Deff Rolla's hits something that are a product of its ramming (tank shocking) the skimmer? Yes.

If a skimmer dodges the ram (tank shock), does either vehicle take damage. No, "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." No caveats. No exceptions. No vehicle suffers any damage.

The DR hits do not take effect until after the ram has been concluded - ie. both vehicles have already not take any damage ram has been concluded - now that causes D6 hit at Str 10 on the victim unit.

Where does the rule say this? If you could just give me a page number that says "You resolve tank shocks before rams." that would be great. But you won't be able to. Because they are the same thing. In fact, you -can- find a page number that says rams are a special form of tank shock. Rams are tanks shocks. Use the terms interchangeably. I dodge the ram. I dodge the tank shock.

ChrisCP wrote:Otherwise to follow your interpretation would mean that neither vehicle suffers any damage [u]ever again[/i].

No, it would mean that they don't suffer any damage in regard to ramming. Ramming is tank shocking. Tank shocking is ramming. If neither vehicle suffers any damage in regard to ramming (tank shocking), then they can't suffer damage as a product of it.

ChrisCP wrote:The DR hits are not part of a ram/ts they happen as the result of a a ram/ts action being concluded (has been made). To apply the rule for the ram damage being negated for both vehicles to deffrolla hits - something that is a product of the ram because-of and after the ram is concluded - is to remove them from their context, the ram, having been concluded , with no damage.

This is your best argument yet. However, I still don't agree. The rules don't say, "Neither vehicle suffers any damage from the ram or tank shock." It simply says "Neither vehicle suffers any damage." If damage was incurred by an action, byproduct or not, and an action I perform says I don't take "any damage", that doesn't suddenly preclude the effects of something that happened as an effect of that action.

Well I have re-read the ramming a skimmer rules in the BRB and it states that the skimmer can try to dogde the vehicle ATTEMPTING to ram.

Therefore if the dodge is successful the ram (and there for the tank shock) never occurs. The skimmer avoids the tank which stops dead in it's tracks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The dr rule does state that any tank shock made..

but against a skimmer a tank shock is only attempted not made until after the attempt to dodge is failed.

Catachan_Devil wrote:Well I have re-read the ramming a skimmer rules in the BRB and it states that the skimmer can try to dogde the vehicle ATTEMPTING to ram.

Therefore if the dodge is successful the ram (and there for the tank shock) never occurs. The skimmer avoids the tank which stops dead in it's tracks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The dr rule does state that any tank shock made..

but against a skimmer a tank shock is only attempted not made until after the attempt to dodge is failed.

Huh, didn't even notice that. . .

Augustus wrote:...physically impossible that is, when a tank that is somehow stopped by an attack prematurely, possibly even immobilized or destroyed, still gets to run over the target?

Absurd.

How would it be impossible? IIRC the DoG auto hits leading me to believe that your guy is pretty fething close to his target so he hits and destroys or immobilizes it...Im sure a massive 500 ton hunk of metal traveling at I don't know 85mph isnt going to just stop on a dime. In an explosion the rolla could have detached and kept on a rollin...what I guess Im trying to say is it is possible the vehicle would require a bit of time and distance to stop...hence you still take the extra hits.

OK,

...but ONLY an Ork tank should do that? not a Landraider, or Falcon, or Hammerhead...? Obviously none of those huge vehicles, flying jets, levitating tanks etc. would shower people in wreckage and all of them would come to a perfect complete stop when immobilized, destroyed or wrecked.

This is an Ork consistency problem.

I cant really comment on your consistency issue...Im simply stating that it is possible.

Sure, and I freely admit, this is only my own opinion about fake men. Some one else fake story is really no less legitimate.

I would absolutely play it by the FAQ everytime, as shown earlier.