Additional Hand Weapons and Frenzy

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**Daba**

Both give me the 'extra attack' special rule. Do I get two extra attacks for each model or just one for having extra attack?

**nosferatu1001**

Special rules stack, so you get extra attack attack

(or, in English: +2 attacks over normal

)

**Daba**

Does this mean I can put Frenzy on a unit twice for +2 attacks too now?

**DukeRustfield**

If a unit has Frenzy they have Frenzy. There is no Frenzier.

**lixulana**

just like having stupidity and getting it again doesnt make you more stupid. WoC :-)

**Infreak**

The special rule doesn't stack with itself. Load a unit of the same speical rule as many times as you want, but you can only benefit from it once.

**JJBCollect2**

Not 100% true. Skaven can get Frenzier with the Death Frenzy spell. And, yes, Frenzy and AHW gives you +2 attacks. It always has, it always will. They gain the special rule from 2 different sources so it stacks.

**Daba**

What's the difference between extra attack and frenzy that one can be applied twice and the other can't? Is it something in he wording I'm missing?

**ShivanAngel**

Death frenzy is a skaven spell that grants 2 bonus attacks. It goes on further to say that if a unit is affected by frenzy it only gains one additional attacks.

You cant put frenzy on a unit twice for +2 attacks.

The special rules stack.

Frenzy is a special rule that gives an extra attack (amongst other things).
Another hand weapon also grants the extra attack rule.

The extra attack comes from 2 different special rules so the stack..

However you cant just keep putting the SAME special rule on a model to keep giving it bonus attacks.

**Daba**

Why can't you out frenzy on twice? Is there a special exception on extra attack allowing stacking, or something in frenzy rules disallowing it?

**ShivanAngel**

Because you cant take the same special rule twice.....

The additional attack is a by product of certain special rules, like AHW and frenzy so they stack...

However you cannot say this guy is REALLY REALLY frenzied and gets 2 extra attacks.

Actually you could take it twice....

Say the model was already frenzied.. ok cool he gets an extra attack...
So you give him a weapon that causes frenzy...Special rule check, yup he is still frenzied +1 attack

**Daba**

But won't the extra attack have the same problem?

Extra attack isn't a by-product anymore by it's own special rule now.

**ShivanAngel**

Daba wrote:But won't the extra attack have the same problem?

Extra attack isn't a by-product anymore by it's own special rule now.

No it wont, because there is no "extra attack rule" by itself that you can give a model, its attached to AHW, Frenzy, or some magic weapons and items. It stacks in this scenario because its from different sources. You cant take the same special rule over and over to gain more attacks.

Saying you gave the model frenzy twice is like saying you gave the model AHW twice, it just doesnt work.

**Daba**

Look in the Special Rules section of the rulebook. Extra Attack is there, near Frenzy.

Sword of Battle doesn't give this, but AHW and Frenzy do.

**JSK-Fox**

Extra attacks are only able to be gained from MULTIPLE DIFFERENT SOURCES. For example, if I give my Khorne Warriors of Chaos a Standard that makes them have frenzy, they only get one extra attack, not two from having frenzy twice. However, if I give them additional hand weapons, they get another extra attack. I can't spend more points on the hand weapons to get extra attacks, since you only can get one extra attack from that source. After that, if I get a roll on the eye of the gods table and get the result that gives me +1 attack, I get another attack. If all of this is in a chosen unit, I could give the champion a weapon that gives him another attack. I can't get two from the same source.

Therefore, you can not get two from the same source (frenzy, additional hand weapons, etc.).

**ShivanAngel**

Daba wrote:Look in the Special Rules section of the rulebook. Extra Attack is there, near Frenzy.

Sword of Battle doesn't give this, but AHW and Frenzy do.

What im saying is its not possible to get the additional attack special rule on its own, it has to come from another source. like frenzy, AHW, etc.

**Daba**

It's still a special rule. What if they release a unit which has the Extra Attack on it's own? Is it suddenly invalidated?

@JSK-Fox - does it mention anything in the rules about different sources? Both grant the extra attack rule which is the source of the bonus attack being the same source?

**JSK-Fox**

I unfortunately do not have the rulebook on me at the moment, but I do however know that if you give a model 50 additional hand weapons they don't get +50 attacks.

**Brotherjanus**

I've been lurking on this site awhile and finally registered to try to clarify what he is saying. He is saying that since the new rules have the special rule "extra attack" and no other rule has ever stacked, do 2 copies from different sources actually stack? it's never happened before. under the old rules it was never called "extra attack" it was just plus 1 attack so was never an issue. So the real question is, where in the rule book does it say that you can stack special rules? The precedent for a difference to the special rule "extra attack" and giving bonus attacks is the magic weapon "Sword of Battle". That leads me to believe they do not work like they did in the past. While it makes no sense that just because you're frenzied you suddenly lose an attack from your 2 hand weapons, that is how it is looking to be played imo. Hopefully there's a rule that clears this confusion up.

**ShivanAngel**

No he is wanting to gain frenzy from multiple sources and wants all the extra attacks to stack...

Like if the model has frenzy, give it a frenzy banner and a item that adds frenzy to give it +3 attacks. (which you cant do)

**JSK-Fox**

Exactly.
That is what I said above, you can't just spam frenzy items and hope you get more attacks, nor can you give them 50 additional hand weapons for 50 extra attacks.

**ShivanAngel**

JSK-Fox wrote:Exactly.
That is what I said above, you can't just spam frenzy items and hope you get more attacks, nor can you give them 50 additional hand weapons for 50 extra attacks.

That would be funny tho, my warlord has 22 extra hand weapons, *rolls 26 dice*

**Brotherjanus**

ShivanAngel wrote:No he is wanting to gain frenzy from multiple sources and wants all the extra attacks to stack...

Like if the model has frenzy, give it a frenzy banner and a item that adds frenzy to give it +3 attacks. (which you cant do)

No, his original question was since he gains the "extra attack" special rule from 2 sources, does he still get plus 2 attacks or only plus 1? The discussion devolved into wanting to stack frenzy after a few posts.

**JSK-Fox**

Actually, that part was initiated by the OP, therefore it did not devolve. He was trying to suggest that you could stack frenzy to get more attacks. But yeah. Imagine Warriors of Chaos with 50 additional hand weapons. Oh wait, let me roll 54 attacks each. :3

**Brotherjanus**

Exactly. that's where the confusion is. Why did they bother to make a special rule that gives 1 extra attack and still have other things that say +1, +2, etc. Why not say "extra attack x1, x2, etc." that leads me to believe there's a difference between the 2. Either that or GW just likes to waste ink and cause confusion where it hasn't been before. I will find out shortly if the rulebook itself says multiple applications of the "extra attack" rule stack. If not, that seems a very silly thing not giving frenzied warriors of Khorne 2 attacks with thier extra hand weapons.

**Malleus**

Skaven use to be able to do this; although each rat had only one tail, there was nothing to restrict them from taking 4 tail weapons except not wanting to be TFG.

On Frenzy and AHW, the intent is clearly that they stack, even if (thanks GW!) the rules are sloppily written.

They should hire some people from forums like this to read their books and critique their rule writing.

Of course, then the book would not be released for a decade and would be longer than the damn encyclopedia brittanica -.-

**ShivanAngel**

AHW and frenzy stacking is very clear actually.

Special rules are cumulative unless it says otherwise....

But that leads to questions like the OP, wanting to know if he can take frenzy 20 times.

**Daba**

Brotherjanus gets what I'm suggesting.

You can't have two interpretations of the same rule.

Khorne warriors with additional hand weapons and the banner of rage get +1 or +3 attacks.

**ShivanAngel**

They get +2 attacks

1 for the AHW, one for the frenzy.

giving them MoK and the banner of rage is redundant, you cant take frenzy twice.

**Aduro**

So what if I gave a character a weapon that gives him frenzy, and put him in a unit with a banner that gives them frenzy. He's getting frenzy from two different sources.