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I am hoping to run a IG infantry heavy gunline list and I was wondering how everyone configures their 30-40 man blob squads.

I want it to deliver good gunline firepower, but also be able to survive assaults from say... Khorne Bezerkers and MEQs in general. I was thinking along the lines of:

30 men
3 Lascannons (against Rhinos/Land Raiders)
3 Plasma Guns
3 Sergeants with Power Weapons
1 Commissar with Power Weapons (Is it worth it to have 3 comissars for the extra PWs? They cost 35 a pop!)
Vox-caster

Would this work? I've heard people saying you could get up to 6-7 PW attacks from a 30-man squad but don't you only have 4 Power Weapons against the Bezerkers?

I'd appreciate some much needed advice! Space Marines are killing me! and of the 8 people that regularly play in my area 7 people play Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines. Guess who's the guy who plays an non-MEQ army >;-( (me)

I am sure more veteran IG players will chime in soon, but here are my quick thoughts.

Add Col Straken- his special abilities and weapon are a huge boost the mob squad.
One Commisar should be enough to keep the unit stubborn for as long as you need.
I'd drop the lascannons depending on what the rest of your army looks like. I'd dedicate this squad to anti-infantry and park it on an objective that matters. Load up with missile launchers, autocannons, or grenade launchers depending on what you like the most. I'd drop the plasma guns in favor of flamers for the issue of cost, though plasma remains popular in many circles.

Then I'd consider a counter-charge element. Rough Riders are often overlooked in many IG armies, and for good reason. However, if you allow those Beserkers into your line, the blob will hold them for a couple of turns, but the weight of those attacks will thin out your IG blob in a couple of turns. A counter charge from the Rough Riders wold ruin the battle plan of many marine and chaos generals.

Your unit looks pretty good, just some suggestions of changes that I would make.

I agree Rough Riders would rock over my CSM army as Bezrekers can get expencive too, try and find a close combat specialist group of infantry like Kanark Skull Takers, Tanith First & Only with Warrior Weapons special equipment bulk up the unit as large as possible charge any marine unit you dont like and watch the blood shed.

drgabe wrote:I am sure more veteran IG players will chime in soon, but here are my quick thoughts.

Add Col Straken- his special abilities and weapon are a huge boost the mob squad.
One Commisar should be enough to keep the unit stubborn for as long as you need.
I'd drop the lascannons depending on what the rest of your army looks like. I'd dedicate this squad to anti-infantry and park it on an objective that matters. Load up with missile launchers, autocannons, or grenade launchers depending on what you like the most. I'd drop the plasma guns in favor of flamers for the issue of cost, though plasma remains popular in many circles.

Then I'd consider a counter-charge element. Rough Riders are often overlooked in many IG armies, and for good reason. However, if you allow those Beserkers into your line, the blob will hold them for a couple of turns, but the weight of those attacks will thin out your IG blob in a couple of turns. A counter charge from the Rough Riders wold ruin the battle plan of many marine and chaos generals.

Your unit looks pretty good, just some suggestions of changes that I would make.

Good point, I realized I really need to cut points to make room for my Anti-Tank in the form of at least 4 Chimeras with Melta-Vets.

My main question is: will the Rough Riders really do anything? They'll get 10 Power Weapon attacks at S5... usable only once. Won't that only kill like 3 Bezerkers?

Also guys just as a seperate question: can you issue orders to a unit twice? E.g. - Bring it down and then Incoming.

I run a 30-man blob with 3 autocannons, 3 PW sarges with meltabombs and one commissar with PW (multiple commissars are a waste) as my only countercharge unit. It's cheap, and so far it eats everything it gets into HtH with (eventually) except walkers. Thin out terminators a bit with shooting before you ovewhelm them. Berzerkers with an ICr can be a threat, but 8 berzerkers without a character will lose eventually.

It's the only countercharge unit you really need, so you can fill the rest of your list with vets and tanks.

Well, lets see (I don't have my rule book or codex in front of me)

5 Rough Riders on the charge is 11 attacks. 5.5 will hit, wounding and killing ~1.8.
10 Rough Riders on the charge is 21 attacks, 10.5 will hit, wounding and killing ~3.5.

And you are going before the Beserkers/Marines- subtracting lots of wounds your blob squad will take. Its more than just pure damage output.

while I'm a big fan of blobs in general I think you are kitting the unit out to much for smaller point games 1500 ish range. Because with 30 bodies that unit will have a very large board footprint meaning that lines of fire wil lbe confused and they are allot easier to charge. Instead of the lascannons, use autocannons the volume of fire allows more shots against transports and you don't lose to much fire power when they get assaulted.

Is it possible to move 6" with a blob squad or any squad actually and get issued "incoming" with a nearby PCS or CCS and then NEXT TURN, with another CCS issue it "FIRE ON MY TARGET" to have it immedaitely fire?

It seems like a good deal to protect the blob with a +2 to the save or another idea is to get a 3 lascannon HWS and have it move 6" then get issued "Incoming" and then get use FOMT to protect those unweidly Lascannon HWTs.

I know HWS have only 7 leadership but with a vox-caster you should still succeed 75% of the time right?

Is it possible to move 6" with a blob squad or any squad actually and get issued "incoming" with a nearby PCS or CCS and then NEXT TURN, with another CCS issue it "FIRE ON MY TARGET" to have it immedaitely fire?

It seems like a good deal to protect the blob with a +2 to the save or another idea is to get a 3 lascannon HWS and have it move 6" then get issued "Incoming" and then get use FOMT to protect those unweidly Lascannon HWTs.

I know HWS have only 7 leadership but with a vox-caster you should still succeed 75% of the time right?

Wow, now I know not to repeatedly press on the submit button when the page locks up.

ugh really sorry for the post spam. Can a moderator delete them? It was un-intentional.

DorianGray wrote:I am hoping to run a IG infantry heavy gunline list

Don't.

DorianGray wrote:I want it to deliver good gunline firepower

Blobs are the WORST way to field heavy weapons. Durable, yes, but the points effectiveness is foolishly prohibitive.

dumplingman wrote:while I'm a big fan of blobs in general I think you are kitting the unit out to much for smaller point games 1500 ish range.

This.

DorianGray wrote:and I was wondering how everyone configures their 30-40 man blob squads.

There are basically two ways to field blob squads.

Objectives campers: 20 or 30 dudes with a commissar with no upgrades. Throw in a few weapon upgrades, but don't go overboard. These guys exist for one reason, to camp on an objective under a screen of "incoming!" If you give them things like power weapons, you're not going to actually be using them as often as you'd like.

Power blobs 20 dudes w/2 powerswords+commissar w/powersword + priest OR 30 dudes w/3 powerswords + commissar w/ power sword. You take these guys and cram them down your enemy's throat. Don't expect to actually fire a lot of guns, but adding meltabombs is a plus.

In your case, you're trying to do both at the same time which makes for a VERY expensive squad that's always wasting some of its killing power.

drgabe wrote:10 Rough Riders on the charge is 21 attacks, 10.5 will hit, wounding and killing ~3.5.

What are you attacking? Against regular marines, a squad of 10 riders puts down about 7.5 on the charge.

My favorite platoon variants:

PCS w/ 4 flamers
30 guardsmen with autocannons, vox, commissar.
SWS w/ flamer, 2 demo charges

I field this almost every game and use it to hold home objectives and bubblewrap my artillery. Early on they take the Bring it Down order to pop transports, and if something comes close they can unleash up to 75 lasgun shots. The PCS and SWS are cheap scoring units that are good at clearing enemy infantry off objectives. I usually keep them in Vendettas to make those scoring, zooming up when needed. Points allowing, I occasionally give the blob squad plasma guns and start adding autocannon heavy weapon squads.


Alternatively, I use this:

Al'Raheem w/ vox, 3 meltas, Chimera
30-40 guardsmen with meltas, vox, commissar, power weapons
1 or 2 SWS w/ flamer, 2 demos

I like outflanking with this mob and going to town on the enemy's armor and the squishy stuff inside. Works particularly well if you have Creed around for another outflanking unit (like a Demolisher) and Furious Charge. Sometimes I put the SWSs in Vendettas, as this forces the bird to show up along with everybody else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DorianGray wrote:Is it possible to move 6" with a blob squad or any squad actually and get issued "incoming" with a nearby PCS or CCS and then NEXT TURN, with another CCS issue it "FIRE ON MY TARGET" to have it immedaitely fire?

It seems like a good deal to protect the blob with a +2 to the save or another idea is to get a 3 lascannon HWS and have it move 6" then get issued "Incoming" and then get use FOMT to protect those unweidly Lascannon HWTs.

I know HWS have only 7 leadership but with a vox-caster you should still succeed 75% of the time right?

Incoming forces you to go to ground (except with a +2), so you give up their next turn unless you order them Back in the Fight.

And HWSs can't have vox casters (the most stupid thing in the codex, hands down, along with not giving Sgts lasguns), so they fail roughly half the time.

Make sure to take melta bombs uncase a walker wants to hug you.

DorianGray wrote:Is it possible to move 6" with a blob squad or any squad actually and get issued "incoming" with a nearby PCS or CCS and then NEXT TURN, with another CCS issue it "FIRE ON MY TARGET" to have it immedaitely fire?

It seems like a good deal to protect the blob with a +2 to the save or another idea is to get a 3 lascannon HWS and have it move 6" then get issued "Incoming" and then get use FOMT to protect those unweidly Lascannon HWTs.

I know HWS have only 7 leadership but with a vox-caster you should still succeed 75% of the time right?

On question one the answer is, not exactly.

For example, you move the blob 6" in turn 1 movement phase. Then in turn 1 shooting phase, you issue the "incoming" order. The unit has now gone to ground
Then in turn 2, your unit has gone to ground and can't do anything, as specified in the "incoming" rule on page 36.

The only order they would be able to take in your turn following the "incoming" order is "get back in the fight," which will get them back up in your shooting phase. But then they can't get another order until the following turn.

But in my experience, almost nobody fires on the blob at all unless they have some kind of cover-ignoring weapon. So rather than using "incoming," it's usually better to spread out and go after the cover-ignoring stuff. The only time I'd ever use "incoming" is in the endgame when a unit is camping an objective.

HWS can't have voxes. But if you give them autocannons, they do fine even the 50% of the time they fail on orders.

Acardia wrote:Make sure to take melta bombs uncase a walker wants to hug you.

I just make sure the walkers are too dead to hug me. I don't fancy dishing out 15-20 points on 3-4 attempts to pen that only hit on 6.

Ailaros wrote:

DorianGray wrote:I am hoping to run a IG infantry heavy gunline list

Don't.

Seconded.

Ailaros wrote:
Objectives campers: 20 or 30 dudes with a commissar with no upgrades. Throw in a few weapon upgrades, but don't go overboard. These guys exist for one reason, to camp on an objective under a screen of "incoming!" If you give them things like power weapons, you're not going to actually be using them as often as you'd like.

No upgrades, unless you're just filling points

Ailaros wrote:

Power blobs 20 dudes w/2 powerswords+commissar w/powersword + priest OR 30 dudes w/3 powerswords + commissar w/ power sword. You take these guys and cram them down your enemy's throat. Don't expect to actually fire a lot of guns, but adding meltabombs is a plus.

Better off with a single mounted vet squad probably, but since you wanted to go with the blob do above w/flamers. You'll want to at least attempt to weaken whatever it is you're charging ( or being run over by...)

Autocannons are a good choice for bubble-wrap squads. Dirt cheap, range to cover most of the board, and great utility against the vehicle-heavy meta. It gives you something to do other than going to ground.

I'm not a super big fan of flamers in assault squads, but I've had all too many instances where those flamers killed all the guys in assault range, leaving me stranded. I prefer to give them meltaguns so they can pop transports and the like.

KingoftheJuice wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

DorianGray wrote:I am hoping to run a IG infantry heavy gunline list

Don't.

Seconded.

Why? Qualify your statements please.

I could argue that were someone to construct the right list, deploy it effectively and play it sensibily, an infantry-heavy gunline could indeed be quite a nasty thing to face down. Having to run the full length of the board surviving round after round of enemy fire, and STILL having to chew through 100+ Guardsmen is a very daunting prospect; especially when you take into account you'll kill 10 Guard in your assault only to be blasted by the remaining 90 (this goes back to effective deployment and preventing multi-charges).

Furthermore, constructing an army like this makes other units more viable. Rough Riders, PBS, Ratlings and even Ogryns could make a strong arguement for inclusion here.

Simply saying 'No.' without thinking 'Why not?' personally speaks of a rather blinkered attitude I'm afraid. I'd be very interested to see over the course of, say, 10 games, how such an army would perform.

L. Wrex

Mobility is important, horde gunlines lack that, so you are at a disadvantage in objective missions. You can hold your own indefinitely, but have little recourse for contesting those outside your deployment.

Horde gunlines give up a lot of KPs, so you are at a disadvantage in those missions as well.

The playstyle of horde gunline is deploying your mass of models, rolling a few dice, and then packing them away in large handfuls. Your entire turn is essentially the shooting phase, so beyond deployment entirely luck-dependent. Not very mentally stimulating. I guess it's a good playstyle if you prefer to game while utterly wasted, but then you may forget which mass of troops has fired and which hasn't.

What Terminus said. Especially...

Terminus wrote:Your entire turn is essentially the shooting phase, so beyond deployment entirely luck-dependent. Not very mentally stimulating.

Or very good, either. We're not playing yahtzee here. There IS an element of skill to this game, which includes how you move your troops. Why start the game by tying one hand behind your back?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: Having to run the full length of the board surviving round after round of enemy fire, and STILL having to chew through 100+ Guardsmen is a very daunting prospect

This isn't 4th edition anymore. This MADE sense back in the past when your only real option was to slowly move 6" at a time toward your opponent, with spending a lot of points on transports (who had hull down, not 4+ cover with smoke). It also made sense where the only point of the game was to "chew through" your opponent's units.

But now we're living in a 5th ed world. Transports are cheaper. Infantry sprint. Assaults are much more deadly. Things can outflank now. The days of slowly trudging out in the open with a handful of units is over. As infantry gunlines were designed first and foremost to handle this tactic which is now moot.

No, instead of parking your guys in a corner and then blowing him apart as he struggles to get to you, now you're looking at...

- A transport wall rushing up and tankshocking your army off the board.
- Outflankers suddenly vaporising your army in close combat.
- Mass horde waves that give you half the time to shoot them with long range weapons
- Drop pods or bike hordes in practically every marine list.
- That guard player who realises you're being an idiot and just camping in the corner and brings a deathstrike.

infantry gunlines WERE effective back when units were slow and expensive, cover was of poor quality, and the only purpose to the game was to kill as much of your opponent while losing as absolutely few of your own troops as is possible. The metagame switch to 5th ed didn't just leave infantry gunlines in the dust, it threw them into the dust and beat them bloody.

All that being said, you can make an infantry heavy list that can be fun and relatively effective. It won't match the tweaked out power builds, but it won't do too badly, either.

Here's something I just threw together for 2500 points.

Creed w/Vox, Standard, 2 meltas, Astropath, Chimera
Full PBS w/Chimera

PCS w/4 flamers (ride in vendetta)
PIS w/lascannon, commissar
PIS w/lascannon, vox
HWS w/3 autocannons

PCS w/4 flamers (ride in vendetta)
PIS w/lascannon, commissar
PIS w/lascannon, vox
HWS w/3 autocannons

Al'Raheem w/vox, 3 meltas, Chimera
PIS w/vox, melta, power weapon, commissar w/ power weapon
PIS w/melta, power weapon
PIS w/melta, power weapon
SWS w/2 demo charges, flamer

Vendetta
Vendetta
10 Rough Riders w/Sgt meltabomb

2 Hydras
2 Basilisks
Manticore

2500 on the dot

132 pairs of boots, 10 AV12 hulls.

10 TL autocannons, 10 TL lascannons, d3 S10 ordnance blasts, paired S9 ordnance blasts, and a S9 psychic large blast make up your heavy long-range shooting. 6 TL meltaguns make up your close-range anti-tank that outflanks the enemy, and you have 2 more in your DZ for backup.

You have four scoring units holding your lines, two of them stubborn blocks of 20 (that you can break up for six scoring units). Vendettas with PCSs are two more mobile scoring modules that can act as long-range gunships, deliver their payload against hordes, turbo-boost in the later turns to contest objectives, and have the option of outflanking. Al'Raheem delivers three more scoring units on your enemy's flank (for a max total of 11 scoring units).

You even have something to do in the shooting phase, combining Weaken Resolve and Furious Charges from the outflanking 30-man mob or Rough Riders to break the opponent in combat in one turn (although either unit is killing at least 8 or 9 marines on the charge on average).

Hmm, I'm going to give this thing a shot this weekend, and see how it does.

yeah, but this is a 2000 point leafblower with infantry forced in. Also, the fact that you put up a 2,500 point list kind of eludes to the fact that it can't be done properly at points levels lower than that.

1. This is not the Leafblower, get off Darkwynn's nuts.

2. Yes, at lower points the IG is more constrained towards full mechanized and veterans to be competitive. This is why I like large games, it allows you to really have fun with the army lists and it looks respectably large on the table.

Terminus wrote:1. This is not the Leafblower, get off Darkwynn's nuts.

Given that your list is 10 AV12 vehicles, 7 of which are artillery, I'd have to say "after you". This is not a straight up copy of a leafblower, this is a knock off that includes an outflanking power blob. If it were an "infantry gunline" like you were trying to make, I can assure you, you'd have more than 130 infantrymen at 2500 points.

Terminus wrote:2. Yes, at lower points the IG is more constrained towards full mechanized and veterans to be competitive.

My point was that it's not possible to make a competitive gunline at less than 2500 points, which is actually a subnested clause of my greater statement which is that it's not possible to make competitive infantry gunlines at all.

bs, "knock off"? I hate how you BOLS-lickers pretty much label any army with chimeras and artillery (wow, what a shocking concept!) as somehow being a copy of Darkwynn's list. And here we have a list that's about as different from his as can be, fielding things like PBS and RR and special characters, only three chimeras, and not a single medusa or veteran squad in sight, and somehow it's still a knock off? Darkwynn's far from the only one to make the stupendous leap of logic that, wow, this edition favors vehicles.

And I didn't say I was making an infantry gunline, I stated very clearly I was making an infantry-heavy list. 130 models is infantry-heavy to me, regardless of point size short of Apocalypse levels. But here I am, breaking my self-imposed rule again. I've long since determined that your entire "expertise" stems from interwebz make-believe, so I don't know why I even bother. Carry on, I'm out.

And this, ladies and boys, is why I like to stimluate discussion.

L. Wrex

I think people are getting too hung up on the term "gunline", and not focusing enough on "infantry heavy". As Ailaros is so fond of (correctly) pointing out, with running, infantry can move, which means that even all infantry lists can have units that can really get places. I want to give something a try:

1500 points

Company Command Squad w/ Straken, Bodyguard, Standard, 3 meltaguns: 205

Infantry Platoon: 525
PCS, Flamer, Lascannon = 55
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
Commissar w/ Power Weapon = 45
PIS, Plasmagun, Lascannon = 85
PIS, Plasmagun, Lascannon = 85

Infantry Platoon: 525
PCS, Flamer, Lascannon = 55
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
PIS, Meltagun, Meltabombs, AC, PW = 85
Commissar w/ Power Weapon = 45
PIS, Plasmagun, Lascannon = 85
PIS, Plasmagun, Lascannon = 85

Psyker Battle Squad (9 Psykers): 110
Psyker Battle Squad (9 Psykers): 110

Total: 1475

25 points for upgrades to taste.

The long range firepower with 12 heavy weapons, 6 of which will often be moving anyway, is only okay for 1500 points, but the army is really durable, and can ignore a lot of targets completely, because of the infantry nature of the army.

Lascannon squads hold home objects, the meltagun squads take midfield objects, supported by Straken. Aside from his bubble of angry, Straken tries to intercept walkers that would tie up the blobs. The biggest problems are backfield ordnance like Whirlwinds and IG artillery. One of these can be weathered or dealt with, but if you run into the random guy that took three Griffons, you might just be hosed. Harker Vets, Marbo, DSing Stormtroopers, and Al'Rahem are all possible solutions to backfield artillery that could replace certain units, or simply make their way into 1850 points.