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Ok, so I was playing my brother about a couple days ago, trying out one of the space marine scenarios in the battle missions book, all-around defence, and I was very close to winning the game, when his battlewagon full of about 450 points of very scary Warboss-and-nobs broke through my line. I thought I was in good shape when my brand new vindicator, who I got for the express purpose of being able to kill these unstoppable monsters, pivoted on the spot, around 4 inches away from the green machines, and pointed its very scary demolisher cannon into the Warboss's face. But then I rolled to hit, and my hopes were soon crushed.

My Vindicator's demolisher round rolled so bad to hit it literally hit on the left side of the vehicle. Then those nobs proceded to tear apart the Vindicator, my predator, a rhino, a full tactical squad, and my Terminator assault squad. And that got me thinking. How the does that happen?! IT DOESN'T. Explosive rounds can't bounce off the ground, roll over 20 feet in the opposite direction it was shot, and then explode.

When you're basically about to pick your enemy's nose with your bolter, I don't think it would be too unreasonable to say it would be a bit easier to hit them then if you were standing like 50 feet away.
So what Im saying is, I think there should be a added modifier to your shooting to-hit rolls if you're within a certain range, like 6 inches.
Probably like a +1 modifier, to a maximum of a 2+ roll. Especially for blast weapons!!! The scatter is going to be much shorter if you're that close! Possibly maybe be able to reroll scatter dice if you're within 6 inches?

These modifiers would really help out ork boys shooting among other things. Whadya guys think? Think it would screw up the balance of the game? C &C welcome.

I actualy realy like what your proposing here, ive had this problem a few times aswell, it would be good for house rules, infact consider this tollen for when my buddies and I have our matches

My brother once played a game and although his barrel was literally touching the enemies tank he still had to roll and ended up missing. I though that was bullsh**

just play testing +1 to hit at under 1/2 range of weapon, seems to help, but will need to playtest so more

SanguinaryGuard wrote:My brother once played a game and although his barrel was literally touching the enemies tank he still had to roll and ended up missing. I though that was bullsh**

a shot like that is guaranteed to miss unless it's like a big fat Nurgle Daemon. enemies just twist aside and you'll end up destroying your cannon anyway

also, they have rules like this for Warhammer Fantasy and some of the other games that don't get much popularity. frankly, a shot like the one you described sounds like the "right hand" isn't talking to the "left hand"

Two reactions to this thread:
1. Shooting at infantry close range, especially with big explosive guns, is a lot harder than long range. First you need to hit them instead of just hit near them, second they are much more aware where the gun is pointing and can jump aside.
2. Shooting at objects at point blank with explosives is a Very Bad Idea™. You risk destroying your own gun (and for this reason most explosive warheads come with delayed activation mechanisms which probably have a fancier name)!

I agree that shooting at something close range with an arc or direct fire weapon like a missile is silly. So I have a counter proposal - all small blast weapons have a minimum range of 12" and all large blast weapons have a minimum range of 18". Lobbed weapons is a different matter when it comes to believability (mortars), there it is perfectly conceivable that you shoot it behind you rather than a few meters in front of you (but why would you try that in the first place!?).

Mahtamori wrote:Two reactions to this thread:
1. Shooting at infantry close range, especially with big explosive guns, is a lot harder than long range. First you need to hit them instead of just hit near them, second they are much more aware where the gun is pointing and can jump aside.
2. Shooting at objects at point blank with explosives is a Very Bad Idea™. You risk destroying your own gun (and for this reason most explosive warheads come with delayed activation mechanisms which probably have a fancier name)!

I agree that shooting at something close range with an arc or direct fire weapon like a missile is silly. So I have a counter proposal - all small blast weapons have a minimum range of 12" and all large blast weapons have a minimum range of 18". Lobbed weapons is a different matter when it comes to believability (mortars), there it is perfectly conceivable that you shoot it behind you rather than a few meters in front of you (but why would you try that in the first place!?).

Your idea has a sound basis, but I think would need heavily revised. Demolisher kill range is only 18-24", Dark Eldar 12" small blast weapons are...unusable? Would take a bit more work than the benefit it'd give.

How would template using Psychic powers use this? there are some powers that use large blast.

I'm thinking ordanance 6" min, barrage 12", and heavy 3". Assault can fire anywhere.

First off, I'm mostly talking about non blast weapons, I was just using the Vindicator as a recent example.

Mahtamori wrote:Two reactions to this thread:
1. Shooting at infantry close range, especially with big explosive guns, is a lot harder than long range. First you need to hit them instead of just hit near them, second they are much more aware where the gun is pointing and can jump aside.
2. Shooting at objects at point blank with explosives is a Very Bad Idea™. You risk destroying your own gun (and for this reason most explosive warheads come with delayed activation mechanisms which probably have a fancier name)!

I agree that shooting at something close range with an arc or direct fire weapon like a missile is silly. So I have a counter proposal - all small blast weapons have a minimum range of 12" and all large blast weapons have a minimum range of 18". Lobbed weapons is a different matter when it comes to believability (mortars), there it is perfectly conceivable that you shoot it behind you rather than a few meters in front of you (but why would you try that in the first place!?).

I definitely disagree with the minimum range idea. The risk of hurting the model that is shooting the blast weapon is already represented by the chance of the template scattering onto itself. But what Im trying to say about the blast weapons is that they shouldn't be able to scatter extreme distances when you're that close.
And what are you talking about they can just "jump aside"? I find it hard to believe that an ork who was 7 feet away from an Imperial guardsmen with a grenade launcher could just move to evade the shot. And these weapons do have blast radius's. You can't just duck to avoid an Earth Shaker round. And yes, you DO just have to hit near them. That's the whole point of an explosive.

NEW IDEA: Blast weapons that shoot within 6" roll 1 scatter dice in place of two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, just reinforcing my point here.

It takes a much shorter time to pull the trigger of a Lasgun that is a very short distance away from an ork then it does for that same ork to "jump" or whatever, out of the way.

And Im not talking like point blank here. Legally, you cant even be point blank to an enemy model in the shooting phase, you have to be at least 1" away. Im mostly talking very short distances, as in under 10 feet.

6 inches might be better than a blanket half range. Otherwise some of the longer ranged weapons would have a major buff. And rapid fire weapons would become even better.

My only hesitation is that this would be a major buff to melta guns (because they want to be <6" for melta special rule.

But it definitely makes sense from a realism standpoint. I'm just not sure what it would do to balance.

Reading this through made me think that maybe we should loan a rule from another game system.

Make blast weapons scatter either the same amount as rules already say, or maximum half of the range of the shot, whichever is more.

So you shoot at target 18 inches away, and it's same scatter as in rules.
You shoot at target 4 inches away, and maximum scatter is 2 inches.

Hopefully it made sense ^.^

How often do I see threads about range modifiers? Sigh.

On topic: Some armies it may make sense. But consider staring a Tyranid in the eye and not screaming much less pointing your gun at it better than you would if it was 50 feet away. Pretty sure there have been studies that have proven that, due to stress, you are actually less accurate up close.

CrazyThang wrote:How often do I see threads about range modifiers? Sigh.

On topic: Some armies it may make sense. But consider staring a Tyranid in the eye and not screaming much less pointing your gun at it better than you would if it was 50 feet away. Pretty sure there have been studies that have proven that, due to stress, you are actually less accurate up close.

My brother has brought up that point. I was thinking about it, and maybe you should have to pass a morale check to get the modifier? And if you fail, you just shoot at normal BS. Of course, Vehicles would automatically pass, as they should. I think this would accurately portray the difference between a Space Marine's steady hand in the face of danger compared to an Imperial Conscript.
Sound good?

Sounds better.

In general I'm just not a fan of the rule lol. Maybe I have seen it proposed too many times?

Hi all.
It would be better to change the shooting mechanic completley IMO.
The current method gives models a fixed chance to hit any target at any distance.Simple but not very 'realistic-tactical-interesting.'(Pick the word you feel applies the most. )

Why not base the chance to hit on the TARGETS stealth ability?
Just roll over the target UNITS stealth score to hit it.(Even simpler than the 'subtract value from 7 to determine the roll to hit 'we have now... )

And then have limited modifiers for long/short range, stealth /spotting equipment, ammunition/weapon type.

In the same vein , just adjust the effective weapon range to reflect te attackers BS.

Ork with bolter, range 18".(BS 1 or 2 -6" from standard range of weapon.)

IG with bolter, range 24"(BS 3 or 4 standard range of weapon.)

SM Captain with bolter, effective range 30"(BS 5 or 6 +6" on standard weapon range )

This adjustment is automaticaly done and put in the unit stats , so the players dont have to work it out.(And could be more graduated obviously...)
A simple tactical simulation approach could deliver more detailed interaction with far fewer rules than current 40k uses.

TTFN

Interesting. Something like the following would be added to the stat block:

St
4+

would be Stealth: 4+ to hit.

Stealth is a fairly... odd name but what you are suggesting does not reflect the firing unit's ability to hit, more like the defender's chance to dodge (which can loosely be described as armor save) or be hidden (which is what a cover save is for).

The second idea seems a bit better but really only limits range and doesn't necessarily affect "to hit".

General Fuzzum wrote:When you're basically about to pick your enemy's nose with your bolter, I don't think it would be too unreasonable to say it would be a bit easier to hit them then if you were standing like 50 feet away.

There is already a rule for this. When you fire a rapid fire weapon within 12" you get twice as many shots. That makes weapons inside 12" a hell of a lot more effective than any +1 modifier can contribute.

Now, I agree that scatter weapons, like all heavy weapons, don't gain a similar benefit and this can produce some goofy results. I wouldn't mind seeing blast weapons within 12" get an additional 1 or 2 point modifier - maybe 1 inside 12" and 2 inside 6". The 2 point mod would cap the scatter of a Space Marine template weapon to 6" at most (and that would happen in less than 2% of all instances), while the shot would land dead centre more than 60% of the time.

The way explosives used to be, is that you couldn't scatter more than half the range you were firing. (Or a third or something)

Perhaps use that?

Hi Crazy Thang.
My idea is to use a stealth value to be the basic chance to hit,(based on the target.) AND the effective range adjustment based on the attackers ability.(Bs sipmply effects the effective range of the ranged weapon.)

The target size + experiance is used to determine its 'stealth value' (or whatever name you want to use for its 'to be seen and hit by ranged weapons' value .)

The attackers ability determines the effective range of ranged weapons.

Modifiers take distance between attacker and defender , and situational equipment bonuses into account.

So rather than BS fixing the chance to hit unealisticaly simply.

The target sets the chance to hit in a more realistic way.


Eg land raider St 2.
At close range( under 18 ") +1 to hit, attacker stationary +1to hit.

The attacker has to roll over 2 (with a +2 modifier) = auotomatic hit.

If the land raider was over 36 "away and in cover.St 2+1+1 =4
the attacker would need a 5 + to hit.

A Single character model St 4, over 36" away +1,in cover+1 has a St of 6.
The attacker has to roll over 6! Impossible shot without positive to hit modifiers.

But if the same character model was under 18" away(+1 to hit) fired on by a stationary attacker(+1 to hit) with targeters(+1 to hit).
The attacker would only need 2+ to hit (2 +3 +5)

Can you see how the simple modifiers (3 for 'to hit' and 3 for 'St values',) allow a massive variance in to hit requirment , with very little fuss. And this takes ALL major targeting factors inot account in a simple simulationist way.

Targets basic to hit value + modifiers = score required to hit.

I am not very good at explaining my ideas , but I hope its a bit clearer now?

TTFN

don't see how this works for scatter, w.e.

anyway, The worst you could do is a scatter 8+, and thats barely likely.

Modifiers are a bad idea. If you get +'s for short range, then you should get -'s for max range. Why not modifiers if you move? After all it is easier to fire if you sit still verses moving forward.

GW did away with modifers when they went to 3rd, and for good reason. They slow the game down.

Lotet wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:My brother once played a game and although his barrel was literally touching the enemies tank he still had to roll and ended up missing. I though that was bullsh**

a shot like that is guaranteed to miss unless it's like a big fat Nurgle Daemon. enemies just twist aside and you'll end up destroying your cannon anyway

also, they have rules like this for Warhammer Fantasy and some of the other games that don't get much popularity. frankly, a shot like the one you described sounds like the "right hand" isn't talking to the "left hand"

He said a Tank. I'm not sure how many tanks are "Twisting Aside". Even with an infintry model, a Bolter to the chest can't really miss. No doging bullets. Not many models get the "Neo" Special Rule.

And with Fantasy, that doesn't make scence. A Musket is supper inacurite, so shooting from 15 feet doesnt make a lot of Difference, accuricy wise

I agree that there should be some kind of range dependent cap on scatter so we don't get shots getting caught in the wind as seems to happen. With regard to the other suggestions I'm not sure agree.

I'm fine with the ability to dodge bullets. Remember this is a simulation, the reality its trying to copy is a blurring whirl of combat. Just because the minis make it look like a boltgun to the chest, doesn't mean that is the represented "reality"

Secondly, as has been pointed out, you don't automatically get to calmly stand there and shoot when there is a genestealer 10 feet from you. Should you choose to it should also confer a penalty to close combat as that is what you should have been getting ready for, and why you wouldn't get automatic hit bonuses. You are busy breaking out the combat blade.

JDM wrote:He said a Tank. I'm not sure how many tanks are "Twisting Aside". Even with an infintry model, a Bolter to the chest can't really miss. No doging bullets. Not many models get the "Neo" Special Rule.

Only if you assume the models are exactly to scale on the battlefield and all standing still at the point of firing. Which is a common mistake people make the turn based nature and warped scale of miniature games - but it's something you have to reject as very silly with a little thinking.