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Something came up in a recent game and I couldn't not find an answer. How do you determine what weapons a model has? Chaos SM profiles have a ccw, a pistol, and a bolter. Would I be able to fire the bolter as well as get the benefit of two ccw or is it only based on what the model has?

Same issue with Eldrad. How many attacks would he get in assault if he charged in? 2 or 3? Do all the attacks gain the benefit of his staff? "wounds on a 2+ and ignores armor"?

Jerelith wrote: How do you determine what weapons a model has?

It tells you in the unit's army list entry.

Chaos SM profiles have a ccw, a pistol, and a bolter. Would I be able to fire the bolter as well as get the benefit of two ccw or is it only based on what the model has?

The model should reflect the profile.

But if it doesn't, it still goes by the rules, not by how it is modelled. The model is simply a marker to represent the unit profile on the table.

Same issue with Eldrad. How many attacks would he get in assault if he charged in? 2 or 3? Do all the attacks gain the benefit of his staff? "wounds on a 2+ and ignores armor"?

See the Close Combat weapons section on page 42 of the rulebook.

So, in the case of Eldrad, I would use his pistol and choose either the bonus from the Witchblade or the Staff of Ulthamar and gain +1 attack?

Models with three or more close combat weapons are kind of a gray area. Typically it's thought that you pick two weapons and apply any bonuses. So yes, Eldrad could get that extra attack with using the Staff and Pistol or Blade and Pistol, but not with Staff and Blade or Blade and Staff.

I understand about models gaining the benefits of only 1 special weapon after re-reading page 42. The main question was about a profile's wargear. When a SM has a ccw, pistol, and bolter, this would give them a +1 attack in cc and still use the bolter or pistol profile for range, regardless of which weapons it is wielding at the time?

Just wanted to make sure. Thanks for the responses.

I as well as everyone else around here has played it like this as follows.

A CSM comes with a bolter, polt pistol and a CCW. Now no matter what he is modeled to have. He will always get the +1 for being armed with the CCW and the pistol. 1 base 1 for the two ccw. Then of course one more attack if they charge.

It also doesnt matter what he has used in the shooting phase. Be it bolter, or pistol or another special weapon. In close combat they will always get the +1 for being armed with 2 CCWs(not that a CSM could fire its bolter and charge in the same turn but you get it)

Also dont forget there are a few special ccws that do not give you the +1 like a power fist and lightning claws you need to have a pair of ether to gain +1 while in close combat for those special weapons.

I tried to be as clear as possible if I got you mixed up anywhere please point it out and I will try to do better.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Models with three or more close combat weapons are kind of a gray area. Typically it's thought that you pick two weapons and apply any bonuses. So yes, Eldrad could get that extra attack with using the Staff and Pistol or Blade and Pistol, but not with Staff and Blade or Blade and Staff.

Not a grey Area at all; in fact there is an entire paragraph on how multiple special close combat weapons work in the Assault Phase section of the BRB.

Eldrad can choose to use either weapon's abilities in any close combat(staff or Witchblade), but he will never recieve the 2 CCW attacks bonus, because he has multiple special weapons.

Such is the price of too much awesome.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Models with three or more close combat weapons are kind of a gray area. Typically it's thought that you pick two weapons and apply any bonuses. So yes, Eldrad could get that extra attack with using the Staff and Pistol or Blade and Pistol, but not with Staff and Blade or Blade and Staff.

Not a grey Area at all; in fact there is an entire paragraph on how multiple special close combat weapons work in the Assault Phase section of the BRB.

Eldrad can choose to use either weapon's abilities in any close combat(staff or Witchblade), but he will never recieve the 2 CCW attacks bonus, because he has multiple special weapons.

Except if he uses the pistol and either other weapon, he isn't using two special close combat weapons. The page can be read either way. This is not a cut and dry issue.

You're assuming Eldrad get a choice to use the pistol and another weapon.

That's not what the rule indicates. Page 42, Two different special weapon rule.

Eldrad as two different special weapon. Yes he has a pistol, but he also has two different special weapon and the rule is very specific as to what happens when you have two different special weapon.

RAI - Eldrad gets a bonus attack for the pistol
RAW - Eldrad forgets he has a pistol because he's wielding two special weapons.

Unfortunately only the next Eldar codex will likely fix that.

Except that the many previous threads on this issue have pointed out that the rules on pg 42 only apply to using two weapons....not using one or three weapons. So since the rules only deal with using TWO weapons we either need to have eldrad pick two weapons and apply pg 42 to whichever two weapons he is using, or else we dont apply those rules to him at all since they wouldnt apply to a model with three weapons.


So yes, if we apply the rules on pg 42 to Eldrad by having him use (not be equipped with, which is different) two weapons it would be perfectly possible for him to choose one special ccw and his pistol to gain +1 attack.

Couple threads on this about Calgar too, since he his codex has a similar issue. Altho some have argued that poor Calgar has a further problem by claiming that his pair of gauntlets is only one special weapon.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:So yes, if we apply the rules on pg 42 to Eldrad by having him use (not be equipped with, which is different) two weapons it would be perfectly possible for him to choose one special ccw and his pistol to gain +1 attack.

The rules on p42 that limit attacks depend only on possession of two different special weapons.

Even allowing him to choose weapons (an option that isn't in the rules), he will still be a model with two different special weapons.

forkbanger wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:So yes, if we apply the rules on pg 42 to Eldrad by having him use (not be equipped with, which is different) two weapons it would be perfectly possible for him to choose one special ccw and his pistol to gain +1 attack.

The rules on p42 that limit attacks depend only on possession of two different special weapons.

Even allowing him to choose weapons (an option that isn't in the rules), he will still be a model with two different special weapons.

That's not what pg42 says.

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

How many special weapons does Eldrad have? Two.
When it is Eldrad's turn to attack, he must choose which weapon to use that turn, but he never gets the bonus attack for using two weapons.

forkbanger wrote:Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

How many special weapons does Eldrad have? Two.
When it is Eldrad's turn to attack, he must choose which weapon to use that turn, but he never gets the bonus attack for using two weapons.

I'll counter your quote with a few arguments:
1. Logic. One weapon is a power weapon and a witchblade. The other weapon is a witchblade. Does preventing Eldrad from chosing CCW+Witchblade make sense to you?
2. The rules you quote are regarding two single-handed weapons. Not three.
3. Since when was a staff single-handed anyway? You're quoting rules dealing with single-handed weapons!

As far as I can find, there are no rules dealing with models equipped with more than two single-handed weapons. In fact, the only rule remotely near this is "of course, if a model is using a two-handed weapon it may not use it together with a single-handed weapon" implying you first must choose what weapon combinations to use!

Eldrad's staff is single handed, oddly enough.

forkbanger wrote:Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

How many special weapons does Eldrad have? Two.
When it is Eldrad's turn to attack, he must choose which weapon to use that turn, but he never gets the bonus attack for using two weapons.

The heading above that talks to models not using two special weapons. Eldrad, having three weapons, is free to choose which ones he wants to use to fight. The rules do not prevent this.

Eldrad has no way to select two weapons - unless you'd like to find the relevant rules?

Alternatively, Eldrad has a witchblade and a staff and a pistol, and has to somehow work using the rules provided. What weapon combinations apply to Eldrad?

Two normal close combat weapons
This does not apply to Eldrad.
Two of the same special weapon
This does not apply to Eldrad.
A normal and a special weapon
This may apply to Eldrad. Usually, such models gain +1A, unless the special weapon is a power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw.
Two different special weapons
This may apply to Eldrad. Such models never gain a bonus attack.

The Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons section refers to models being equipped - specifically, "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Eldrad is equipped with a witchblade and a staff and a pistol he can use in close combat. That's two special weapons. A model so equipped chooses one and gains no bonus attacks. Allowing him to choose two out of his three weapons won't change what he's equipped with.

The Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons section refers to models being equipped - specifically, "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Doesn't your own post defeat your own entire argument? This post says that these rules apply to models equipped with 2 single handed close combat weapons. Eldrad is equiped with 3 not 2, by your own quote these rules do not apply to him...

FlingitNow wrote:Doesn't your own post defeat your own entire argument? This post says that these rules apply to models equipped with 2 single handed close combat weapons. Eldrad is equiped with 3 not 2, by your own quote these rules do not apply to him...

So Eldrad never recieves any bonus attacks, and cannot use any of his special weapons. There are no rules to handle a model with 3 close combat weapons.

So Eldrad never recieves any bonus attacks, and cannot use any of his special weapons. There are no rules to handle a model with 3 close combat weapons.

Yes by RaW the game breaks the minute Eldrad gets into combat as you have no way to resolve his attacks.

Fortunately though the rules are pretty clear he gets 2 attacks for being double armed (3 on the charge) and can use either WB and SP or Staff and SP to gain that.

FlingitNow wrote:Fortunately though the rules are pretty clear he gets 2 attacks for being double armed (3 on the charge) and can use either WB and SP or Staff and SP to gain that.

They're not clear, hence the thread and argument. :toot:

He has no option to select two out of his three weapons in the rules.

The staff + pistol, witchblade + pistol and staff + witchblade options are all equally valid weapon combinations, and there's no way to tell which he can use and what benefits he gets.

He's got 1 attack base, +1 for charging, and then +1 staff + pistol/witchblade + pistol which he can't have due to staff + witchblade.

FlingitNow wrote:

The Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons section refers to models being equipped - specifically, "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Doesn't your own post defeat your own entire argument? This post says that these rules apply to models equipped with 2 single handed close combat weapons. Eldrad is equiped with 3 not 2, by your own quote these rules do not apply to him...

Unless I never learned to count correctly doesn't having 3 of something also mean you have 2 of the same thing? If I have 3 apples don't I also have 2 apples? Now if I'm asked do I have exactly 2 apples then I have to say no. But, in general, if someone asked if I had 2 apples then I'd say yes.
Also as to your argument that the rules don't prevent you from picking your combination of CCWs, the rules are permissive in this instance so it is up to you to find a rule that allows you to do something (in this instance make a selection of which weapons to use).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

The Fighting With Two Single-Handed Weapons section refers to models being equipped - specifically, "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Doesn't your own post defeat your own entire argument? This post says that these rules apply to models equipped with 2 single handed close combat weapons. Eldrad is equiped with 3 not 2, by your own quote these rules do not apply to him...

Unless I never learned to count correctly doesn't having 3 of something also mean you have 2 of the same thing? If I have 3 apples don't I also have 2 apples? Now if I'm asked do I have exactly 2 apples then I have to say no. But, in general, if someone asked if I had 2 apples then I'd say yes.
Also as to your argument that the rules don't prevent you from picking your combination of CCWs, the rules are permissive in this instance so it is up to you to find a rule that allows you to do something (in this instance make a selection of which weapons to use).

Well said.

Leo_the_Rat wrote: Unless I never learned to count correctly doesn't having 3 of something also mean you have 2 of the same thing? If I have 3 apples don't I also have 2 apples? Now if I'm asked do I have exactly 2 apples then I have to say no. But, in general, if someone asked if I had 2 apples then I'd say yes.

The problem is that in this case the rules are referring specifically to models with exactly 2 apples.


The common workaround is to assume that when the Close Combat Weapons section says to look at the combination of weapons the model has, it means the combination that you are choosing to use in that round of combat.

Otherwise, we are indeed left with the fact that models with 3 weapons aren't covered by the combinations listed, and so fall into a black hole in the rules.

Unless I never learned to count correctly doesn't having 3 of something also mean you have 2 of the same thing? If I have 3 apples don't I also have 2 apples? Now if I'm asked do I have exactly 2 apples then I have to say no. But, in general, if someone asked if I had 2 apples then I'd say yes.
Also as to your argument that the rules don't prevent you from picking your combination of CCWs, the rules are permissive in this instance so it is up to you to find a rule that allows you to do something (in this instance make a selection of which weapons to use).

Actually the rulebook does specifiy 2, not 2 or more and all the examples and detail ONLY work in reference to 2 weapons not 2 or more weapons.

As for the apples arguement most people with 3 apples would say if asked if they had 2 apples "No, I have 3".

They're not clear, hence the thread and argument. :toot:

They are clear just like the Doom's invulnerable save was clear. People on Dakka will argue anything if they have some form of semantic support...

He has no option to select two out of his three weapons in the rules.

He also has no option to use all 3, he in fact has no direct permission to do anything and the game breaks the minute he gets into CC if you play by RaW.

He's got 1 attack base, +1 for charging, and then +1 staff + pistol/witchblade + pistol which he can't have due to staff + witchblade.

Which doesn't apply if he's using Staff + Pistol or Witchblade + pistol...

FlingitNow wrote:He also has no option to use all 3, he in fact has no direct permission to do anything and the game breaks the minute he gets into CC if you play by RaW.

The game doesn't break. He just doesn't benefit from his wargear as no rules apply to thre close combat weapons.

FlingitNow wrote:Which doesn't apply if he's using Staff + Pistol or Witchblade + pistol...

That means he's chosen between two special weapons. That means no bonus attack, because that's what happens when you choose between two special weapons.

The game doesn't break. He just doesn't benefit from his wargear as no rules apply to thre close combat weapons.

But he HAS to use his wargear and HAS to follow the rules for it... But also he can't which is why the game breaks. You have no rules by RaW to use to cover models armed with 3 single handed weapons.

That means he's chosen between two special weapons. That means no bonus attack, because that's what happens when you choose between two special weapons.

A restriction that only applies if he is wielding ONLY 2 special weapons, not 2 Special weapons and something else.

FlingitNow wrote:But he HAS to use his wargear and HAS to follow the rules for it...

Really? Models with a single close combat weapon use it. Models with two close combat weapons use one of the combinations. With three weapons you are in neither category, by your reasoning. No rules should apply, so a model with three weapons, two of them special, will gain no benefit.

FlingitNow wrote:But also he can't which is why the game breaks. You have no rules by RaW to use to cover models armed with 3 single handed weapons.

There are no rules for a model with three weapons; that's fine. He can't select any of them as there are no rules to allow it, and none of the existing special weapon rules apply; that's fine, too. He's got an attack characteristic and no extra benefit from his gear.

Each engaged model strikes with the number of attacks on it's profile, plus the following bonus attacks-
+1 Assault bonus
+1 Two weapons

So a three-weapon model making an assault gets +1A, and the weapons do nothing. There's no rules allowing three weapons, there's no rule causing a problem with possessing three weapons.

FlingitNow wrote:A restriction that only applies if he is wielding ONLY 2 special weapons, not 2 Special weapons and something else.

There is no mention of wielding in the Fighting With Two Single-handed Weapons section. You could try and argue that it refers only to models equipped with exactly two single-handed weapons. Unfortunately, weapons such as bolters can be used in assaults (weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc. are included in the normal close combat weapons section), so I guess Space Wolves with their bolter + bolt pistol + close combat weapon can never benefit from any weapon combinations either?

This is just rehashing the same old debate. Time to give it a rest, methinks.