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so last night i was painting with a few friends and the topic came up about the deathleaper stating that his "its after me" ability can only target independent characters.

It states "nominate a enemy character model" but nothing about it having to be a independent question

has anyone else had this debate?

Deathleaper can target characters - independent characters and upgrade characters. It can't target non-character single-modle units, like Mephiston and Psycho Tycho.

Character types are defined on p47.

forkbanger wrote:Deathleaper can target characters - independent characters and upgrade characters. It can't target non-character single-modle units, like Mephiston and Psycho Tycho.

Character types are defined on p47.

Death Company Tycho, and Mephiston Are both Very much Characters; in fact they are special Characters(Pg 49).

They are however both the exception to the Character types. You may want to note before you argue that they do not fit into the 2 Character types listed, that just before the list; the sentence includes the qualifier "normally", meaning that those are not the only 2 types of Characters.

So the Deathleaper's ability can target: Any ICs, any Special(named) characters of any type, and any Sergeants or equivalent.

Kommissar Kel wrote:So the Deathleaper's ability can target: Any ICs, any Special(named) characters of any type, and any Sergeants or equivalent.

"Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters," p49.

Deathleaper cannot target Psycho Tycho or Mephiston, as they are not characters. Odd, but true.

They are not independent characters.
They are not upgrade characters.
Being neither, they are not special characters.

"-these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name[i] and not just a title, are called 'special characters'." p 49

Sounds to me like that covers Mephiston and Tycho.

Jerelith wrote:"-these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name[i] and not just a title, are called 'special characters'." p 49

Sounds to me like that covers Mephiston and Tycho.

Special Characters can be either Independent or Upgrade Characters... says so on the same page 49. And they stand out from other characters by having a name, as you pointed out.

Tyco and Mephiston are definitely characters, as they are designated as Unique. Being Unique designates you as a special character as shown on pg 49. The Deathleaper may affect either of those models.

Except to be a Special Character you must be either Independent or Upgrade. As has been mentioend about 5 times already.

Yup theres plenty of unique things that aren't characters.
Like the tank upgrade guys (vehicles), or the unique greater deamons (MCs), not to mention the swarmlord himself (yet another MC).

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except to be a Special Character you must be either Independent or Upgrade. As has been mentioend about 5 times already.

Regardless of the repetition, a 'unique' model is a character. That's why Unique has its own little section in the Characters section of the rulebook.

Pask...just a 'vehicle upgrade', no unique designation...not a character.
Chenkov...a unit upgrade and designated as unique...character.
Swarmlord...designated as unique...character.
Masque...designated as unique...character.
Nob as part of a Nobz mob...not a character.
Nob as an Ork Boyz upgrade...character.

triplare wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except to be a Special Character you must be either Independent or Upgrade. As has been mentioend about 5 times already.

Regardless of the repetition, a 'unique' model is a character. That's why Unique has its own little section in the Characters section of the rulebook.

Pask...just a 'vehicle upgrade', no unique designation...not a character.
Chenkov...a unit upgrade and designated as unique...character.
Swarmlord...designated as unique...character.
Masque...designated as unique...character.
Nob as part of a Nobz mob...not a character.
Nob as an Ork Boyz upgrade...character.

"UNIQUE
Special characters can be either independent or
upgrade characters,"

"Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion,"

"Nominate a single enemy character at the start"

So yeah. The only reason Pask isn't an Character is he is missing a statline :(

Triplare - whatr aprt of "special characters can be either independent or upgrade" are you missing?

If you are unique but NOT independent or upgrade you are NOT A CHARACTER.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Triplare - whatr aprt of "special characters can be either independent or upgrade" are you missing?

If you are unique but NOT independent or upgrade you are NOT A CHARACTER.

GW refers to Swarmlord and other Tyranid Unique models as "Special Characters". Even though they're not an upgrade or Independent:

Q: Tyranid Special Characters. Are Tyranid Special
Characters considered to be special versions of the
standard creatures of their type for the purposes of
using psychic powers, biomorphs and special rules? For
example, is the Swarmlord considered to be a Hive
Tyrant for the purposes of using Hive Tyrant psychic
powers? Similarly, is Deathleaper considered to be a
Lictor. . .etc, etc.

ChrisCP wrote:
So yeah. The only reason Pask isn't an Character is he is missing a statline :(

Given that there are no standard or requirements written in the main rulebook to determine whether any particular model is a special character or not, aside from having a name and only being allowed one of the model, Pask is just as much a character as all of the other examples that have been cited.

He has a stat line. He's unique. He has a model. He forms his own unit. That makes him a character when he shows up, according to those same standards.

But how are you going to stare at him with The Deathleapers beady eyes?

Puma - meaning the FAQ ignores the rules? Gee, who'd have thought.

RAW: characters are either unique or special. While you may look like a character, if you are not one of those two types according tothe BRB you are NOT a character, and as such are not affected by Deathleaper

RAI: who knows - they redefine the term for the nid FAQ, but not anything else including the older codexes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:they redefine the term for the nid FAQ, but not anything else including the older codexes.

And that there is where Puma's argument falls appart, the tyranid FAQ applies to the tiranid dex alone, as such it seems the only MC in the whole game that can be affected by deathleaper are swarmlord and old one eye

"Special Character" is used in the Tyranid FAQ as a shorthand for the Swarmlord, Deathleaper, the Doom of Malantai, and Old One-Eye.

They should really have listed the relevant unique Tyranids and avoided the Special Character wording.

HoverBoy wrote:And that there is where Puma's argument falls appart, the tyranid FAQ applies to the tiranid dex alone, as such it seems the only MC in the whole game that can be affected by deathleaper are swarmlord and old one eye

Untrue.

FAQ entries such as-
Q: Can Harpies and Hive Tyrants with the Wings biomorph deep strike?
A: Yes.
-apply to all 'move as Jump Infantry' models and answer a long-debated question.

Meanwhile, this-
Q: Can a Mawloc choose to Deep Strike onto a point occupied by an enemy model on purpose in order to use the Terror from the Deep special rule?
A: Yes.
-applies to all units with Deep Strike, allowing deliberate selection of target locations that will cause a mishap.

Yes but that is only by extention can you truly claim that a DP with deamonic flight is a tyrant or harpy, if not the rule does not specifically alow him to DS.

Do you say that a vendetta, for example, is a Mawloc and as such has the ok to attempt DS on top of other models?

Both of your examples ignore GW's clear ruling that a FAQ applies only to the codex its assosiated with.

HoverBoy wrote:Yes but that is only by extention can you truly claim that a DP with deamonic flight is a tyrant or harpy, if not the rule does not specifically alow him to DS.

Both Winged Daemon Princes and Winged Hive Tyrants 'move as Jump Infantry'.

The Tyranid FAQ makes clear that that movement includes the Deep Strike clause of Jump Infantry movement. You are left with a situation where either-
a) both units may Deep Strike, as their rules are worded identically.
or
b)only one of the units may Deep Strike, despite their rules being worded identically.

HoverBoy wrote:Do you say that a vendetta, for example, is a Mawloc and as such has the ok to attempt DS on top of other models.

Any unit which can Deep Strike may aim wherever it pleases. I've said this consistently. Your Vendetta can aim itself into a unit, into a cliff, wherever you like - but it will suffer mishap. It's a legitimate target (something borne out by the Mawloc FAQ answer), but you will suffer the consequences of doing so, unless you have a special rule avoiding such consequences. The Mawloc has nothing which allows it an exception to the Deep Strike rules regarding placement, only a rule that replaces specific kinds of mishap. Up until the point of that mishap, Mawlocs and Vendettas follow identical rules.

Again with this identical, in a permissive ruleset it does not make them the same. As it stands now only the units mentioned in those answers can benefit from those rulings.

Note i would never play them that way, or play with anyone who does.

Back OT the Unique rules on page 49 clearly state that a special character is either an independant or an upgrade charracter, as such any named models that aren't either, aren't really characters for the purposes of deathleaper.

Edit: This might need a pool

IF you want to play your 40k games as models like Mephiston and Doom of Malan'tai aren't characters, then go for it. I just disagree with that.

ICs and upgrade models make up most of the characters in the game, but they're not the only characters. If only ICs/upgrades were the only characters, there would be no reason at all to even include the whole 'Special Characters - Unique' information in the Characters section of the rules in the first place. Why would GW even include 'Unique' in that portion of the book when upgrades and ICs are already well covered previously in the Characters section? As I see it, it's to show that unique models are also characters.

To say that models like Mephiston aren't characters seems like a real stretch from my viewpoint.

triplare wrote:To say that models like Mephiston aren't characters seems like a real stretch from my viewpoint.

Dude its a rule, it dosen't have to make sense it just needs to be written

HoverBoy wrote:Again with this identical, in a permissive ruleset it does not make them the same.

Identical rules produce identical results.

Saying otherwise is being deliberately obtuse.

Two models that 'move as Jump Infantry' must follow the same rules - if one may Deep Strike, the other must also be able to Deep Strike. The alternative is that the game simply breaks as every single rule becomes questionable.

forkbanger wrote:The alternative is that the game simply breaks as every single rule becomes questionable.

Welcome to GW writing club have a cookie

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except to be a Special Character you must be either Independent or Upgrade. As has been mentioend about 5 times already.

So to be a character, a character has to be a special or upgrade character?

To be an upgrade or special character, a model has to be a character.

Special characters are just that. Look at the end of the Tyranid codex regarding making your own Hive Fleet.
Swarmlord is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.
Mephiston is a character.
Not independent, nor upgrade.

Page 47 "Armies normally include two types of characters"
As specifically opposed to "Armies only include two types of characters".

There are not special rules for characters, only for upgrade characters and independent characters, this confuses people into assuming there are ONLY two types of characters.

Edited for consistency.

HoverBoy wrote:Dude its a rule, it dosen't have to make sense it just needs to be written

You'll get no disagreement from me on that point! RAW is great and should settle most rules debates, but unique characters is one instance where I deviate from strict RAW doctrine, for all the reasons previously mentioned. Again, what would be the point of 'Unique' being in the 'Special Characters' section if the info is already greatly detailed in the previous parts of the Characters section? RAW leads to general sillyness like Mephiston not being a character. My RAI is trumping the RAW on this issue and I'm comfortable with that.

A poll would be great...but in this hot weather a pool would be even better!

triplare wrote:A poll would be great...but in this hot weather a pool would be even better!

Oh thats right pick on the non-native english speaker

Page 49 is really the culprit, the more I read.

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters' . . . Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters"

This seems to imply that special characters have to be independent or upgrade characters--it only gives the allowance to be, however.

Individual, named models are special characters.

Sweet here comes the LD8 land raider, because, unlike Pask, Brother-sarge whatever does have unique listed as his unit composition.