Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So the latest plan theoried up here is one to try to come closer to securing the coveted 12 on the Eye of the Gods Table looks like this:

Large unit of Chosen, Mark of Tzeentch, weaponry to suit. Common Banner that causes Terror, Champ w/Favor of the Gods (+1/-1 on Eye of the Gods).

The table then is rolled on with the following plan:

2- Re-rolled- not possible for Chosen's starting roll
3- Modify to a 2 with favor, thus forcing a re-roll
4- Must accept (but modify to 3, 4, or 5 to taste)
5- Must accept (but modify to 4, 5, or 6 to taste)
6- Modify to a 7 for a re-roll
7- Re-rolled
8- Modify to a 7 for a re-roll
9- Modify to a 10, unit already causes terror, so re-roll
10- Unit causes terror so re-roll
11- Modify to 12, job done
12- You get the picture.

You're basically re-rolling till you get a 4, 5, 11, or 12. This boils down to a pretty decent opportunity to get stubborn, 4+ ward (to 3+ with MoT), and a very hard to shift unit. That failed, you can hang on to some nice buffs. Add warshrines if you really want to try again. I don't think this is the be all/end all, but something one of the locals is planning on trying out. Thoughts from Warriors players? Too much in one basket/vulnerable to uber spells?

RZ

Take Valkia and get another re-roll.

Well, chosen are rather expensive, and I probably wouldn't try this in any less than 2250 points. An optimal unit would be something like 425 Points for 15 chosen(Halberds, Shields, MoT, Full Command, Terror banner, Favor)

Kudos for a very, very clever use of the Terror banner though.

There's nothing this unit can do that a normal unit of chaos warriors couldn't also do. The table is tempting to play with, but it is one of the most ill conceived game mechanics GW has ever devised in probably the worst army book they've ever written. I'd just go with chaos warriors and be done with it.

Adding warshrines is also a huge mistake because you're far better off with hellcannons.

If you keep the unit small, say 12 models, and pull the ward and stubborn on the table, I think you have a really solid unit that isn't going to bankrupt you (355 points for 12 w/ Halberds, Shields, Mark, and Banner). Best part is, if you don't pull the 12 on the table a single warshrine should be able to provide it and you'll get an offensive option off of the chart as well. This unit would be a pretty solid bunker to drop a BSB in as well especially if you DON'T pull the ward save on the initial generation and confer it with the warshrine (that way the BSB gets it as well).

Even if you sink enough point into the unit to make it 18 chosen 475, in a 2500 point game, that leaves you enough points for 2x blocks of 35ish Tzeench Marauders as anvils, some marauder horsemen to attack warmachines, a Level 4, the BSB, and 500 extra points of toys.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:There's nothing this unit can do that a normal unit of chaos warriors couldn't also do.

You mean, outside of winning combats with High S ASF units, like elves right? Swordmasters and White Lions are custom made to chew through warriors, especially if they pull one of several different buffs from the spells the elves are sure to be slinging.

I've heard tell that you don't WANT the starting roll to be the 4+ ward save. If you do, characters that join the unit don't benefit from it. Let their roll be whatever, then use a warshrine to buff the unit using the same mechanic [now with even better odds since you'll have yet another option that must be rerolled], so that characters joined to the unit get the ward save.

Why so much praise for the hellcannon now? Because it doesn't guess? People think it's so cool because it's S5(10) when it's ALWAYS been that way. Being better because other stonethrowers got nerfed to 3(9) doesn't make it automatically a better choice!

It's not just that Stonethrowers changed, but that a Hellcannon's stock went up with the loss of guess ranges. It is also capable of handling itself in hth and even if you Misfire you can blow up wizards. In 7th it was overpriced, in 8th it's just right.

It's not just that Stonethrowers changed, but that a Hellcannon's stock went up with the loss of guess ranges. It is also capable of handling itself in hth and even if you Misfire you can blow up wizards. In 7th it was overpriced, in 8th it's just right.

Hellcannon should also have Thunderstomp, right?

Endgame wrote:
You mean, outside of winning combats with High S ASF units, like elves right? Swordmasters and White Lions are custom made to chew through warriors, especially if they pull one of several different buffs from the spells the elves are sure to be slinging.

You give two units of marauders great weapons and they will kill a lot more than one unit of 12 Chosen who may or may not get the roll you need when you need it.

Hellcannon does have thunderstomp and my hellcannons kill about 20-40 models a game. This makes Warshrines an utter waste of points. They are absolutely ineffective compared to what you get from a Hellcannon.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:

Endgame wrote:
You mean, outside of winning combats with High S ASF units, like elves right? Swordmasters and White Lions are custom made to chew through warriors, especially if they pull one of several different buffs from the spells the elves are sure to be slinging.

You give two units of marauders great weapons and they will kill a lot more than one unit of 12 Chosen who may or may not get the roll you need when you need it.

Hellcannon does have thunderstomp and my hellcannons kill about 20-40 models a game. This makes Warshrines an utter waste of points. They are absolutely ineffective compared to what you get from a Hellcannon.

It doesn't matter how well it performs compared to another choice that is completely different.

I'm not a fan of the warshrine, but I've seen it used well.

This is a clever idea.

Lets assume you're going to take a level 4 and a BSB -- You're going to want ward saves on both models, and the BSB is especially important in 8th so if at all possible you want an excellent armor save AND a ward save on him. Instead of sinking 75+ points on ward saves between the level 4 and the BSB drop the Mark of Tzeench on both of them and drop them in the chosen unit. You've saved enough points on ward saves to buy half of a Tzeench warshrine.

Now before the game modify your roll on the chart to get anything other than a 12 for the chosen (ideally a 3 or a 4 for reroll purposes). When you drop the warshrine on the chosen, you've pretty much guaranteed a 12 through rerolls (a second warshrine guarentees you can reroll until you get a 12) and you get a 3+ ward save on your BSB and your Lvl 4.

There isn't much that can outfight a unit of chosen, espeically if you drop the banner of rage on the BSB. Their base stats are high enough that they will past most characteristics tests. Combat wise the unit shouldn't break, so in all honesty you should be safe running a unit of 10 with the level 4 and BSB in it. T4, a 3+ save and a 3+ ward should ensure you last through combats all game long without losing the unit.

Man, a bunker unit of 10 for 315 points is actually sounding pretty good right now...

Endgame wrote:Lets assume you're going to take a level 4 and a BSB -- You're going to want ward saves on both models, and the BSB is especially important in 8th so if at all possible you want an excellent armor save AND a ward save on him. Instead of sinking 75+ points on ward saves between the level 4 and the BSB drop the Mark of Tzeench on both of them and drop them in the chosen unit. You've saved enough points on ward saves to buy half of a Tzeench warshrine.

Now before the game modify your roll on the chart to get anything other than a 12 for the chosen (ideally a 3 or a 4 for reroll purposes). When you drop the warshrine on the chosen, you've pretty much guaranteed a 12 through rerolls (a second warshrine guarentees you can reroll until you get a 12) and you get a 3+ ward save on your BSB and your Lvl 4.

There isn't much that can outfight a unit of chosen, espeically if you drop the banner of rage on the BSB. Their base stats are high enough that they will past most characteristics tests. Combat wise the unit shouldn't break, so in all honesty you should be safe running a unit of 10 with the level 4 and BSB in it. T4, a 3+ save and a 3+ ward should ensure you last through combats all game long without losing the unit.

Man, a bunker unit of 10 for 315 points is actually sounding pretty good right now...

When they get shot apart before they see combat or get tied up with useless units you'll wish you hadn't sunk so many points into one gimmick.

Karon wrote:

It doesn't matter how well it performs compared to another choice that is completely different.

I'm not a fan of the warshrine, but I've seen it used well.

This is a clever idea.

What you said made no sense. If you can spend the points on another unit (or in this case multiple units) that will out perform the unit, there's a direct comparison. If you can spend the same points on units that will be more effective, then taking the more effective units is the obvious choice.

I'll admit that it's a clever idea, but for the same points you can have multiple units on the table which will in the end be far more effective than sinking 500+ points on a gimmick that can fail easily and be kept away from the combats it really needs to be in.

I will also reiterate that two hellcannons will be far more effective in the game than doing any of this. There's just no comparison between a Hellcannon and a Warshrine. Hellcannons will always be a much better use of points.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
When they get shot apart before they see combat or get tied up with useless units you'll wish you hadn't sunk so many points into one gimmick.

Interesting. So you don't see any value in a guaranteed 3+ ward save on a level 4 and your BSB? As for shot to pieces, thats not likely at all -- you realize it takes 37 Str4 AP shots to kill a single warrior, right? That means that even a hellblaster that fires all of its shots is unlikely to kill a single warrior at long range. It takes 81 S 3 shots to kill a warrior. Even stone throwers don't do all that well due to the small size of the unit and the 3+ ward save.

Total cost for the bunker is what, 315 points? Add the war alter for essentially 75 (you would have spent at least 75 points on ward saves for your lvl4 and your bsb anyway), so the total cost is 390 points?

Karon wrote:
What you said made no sense. If you can spend the points on another unit (or in this case multiple units) that will out perform the unit, there's a direct comparison. If you can spend the same points on units that will be more effective, then taking the more effective units is the obvious choice.

I'll admit that it's a clever idea, but for the same points you can have multiple units on the table which will in the end be far more effective than sinking 500+ points on a gimmick that can fail easily and be kept away from the combats it really needs to be in.

I will also reiterate that two hellcannons will be far more effective in the game than doing any of this. There's just no comparison between a Hellcannon and a Warshrine. Hellcannons will always be a much better use of points.

I'm not convinced that Marauders are always the better choice over warriors & chosen. Naked great weapon marauders get chewed up really fast against spears, especially if they are running any kind of buff with the unit.

Characters do not benefit from this combo. Read your chosen special rule.

I think the implication is that they would if you lay the warshrine on the unit after deployment, and after you've accepted yet another result on the pre-game roll.

I think this seems to be a solid trick. Even without the warshrine you have a good chance in getting the 4+ws and stubborn, and the low end choices aren't too bad either if you get stuck with one of them. The chosen also have pretty good stats, so they should be able to avoid the worst from the uber-spells (purple sun,pit,dwellers etc.), and if there's a collar guy in there, his mr(2) should help vs direct damage...

15 Tzeentch chosen with the gear costs about 400ish. It shouldn't even be too big of a point sink if the armysize is around 2400/2500ish, and due to the more mobile infantry in 8th, these guys could actually get into combats now.

Da_Viking wrote:Characters do not benefit from this combo. Read your chosen special rule.

They do if you get the 4+ ward save from the warshrine. I'm happy to give my chosen options 3 4 or 5 (thats what, +1 S, +1T, or +1A?) at the start of the game so I can give my characters the 4+ ward.

Skaven 13th spell is pretty nasty vs this unit, though. ( )

Yes it works, yes it is funny, yes it has been done many times before. The terror banner thing is entertaining though.

Chosen with 2-3 good buffs are a monster unit that can grind through almost anything. MoT for the mighty 3+ ward save on the unit along with T5 makes them impossible to remove. +1A, +1S makes them a meatgrinder to be feared.

The best part of this and the part people always avoid is that you can drop the buff and use the warshrine to buff up something else if you want it. Not always great but the chosen dont always need the buff, share the love around and you should do decently.

Sorry for confusion. I was refering to the fact that the characters could not benefit from the pregame roll(s).

A quick question: a shrine with MOT; What does it do? Is it a MC? Does it give it any benefits to units near it? I have been confused since 7th ed.

A warshrine is effectively a monster. MoT affects it like it would affect any other unit.