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hi,please have a look at my army list and tell me what you think about it +C&C

HQ:

daemonprince,wings,MON,warptime=175 pts.

daemonprince,wings,MON,warptime=175 pts.

Standard:

7 plaguemarines,2 flamethrowers,rhino,personal icon=211 pts.

7 plaguemarines,2 flamethrowers,rhino,havoc launcher=221 pts.

7 plaguemarines,2 flamethrowers,rhino=206 pts.

7 plaguemarines,2 flamethrowers,rhino,pesonal icon=211 pts.

Heavy support:

2 obliterator cultists=150 pts.

2 obliterator cultists=150 pts.

=1499 pts.

Well, its a themed army but not really effective.
I'd drop one PM unit and add more fire support.

Well, how pure are you looking to be?
Oblit cults don't seem right for a 'by the (old) book'.

Anyway, you really hate GEQ's...where are the meltas and plasmas? Does your meta have no vehicles, MC's, or tougher targets?

Princes are kinda expensive for 1500. While the lack of fists is kinda wierd IMO.

ok ,Ill make some changes sooner or later

by the way, the title is wrong ,the k shouldn`tbe there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this list:


HQ:


daemonprince,wings,MON,warptime=175 pts.

Standard:

7 plaguemarines,2 Plasmaguns ,rhino, plaguechampion with Pfist=266 pts.

7 plaguemarines,2 meltaguns, rhino ,plaguechampion with Pfist=256 pts.

7 plaguemarines,2 flamethrowers,rhino, personal icon, plaguechampion with Pfist=251 pts.

Heavy support:

3 obliterator cultists=225 pts.

predator with twin linked lascannons, side sponsons with 2 lascannons =165 pts.

predator with twin linked lascannons, side sponsons with 2 lascannons =165 pts.

=1503 pts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
or should i better use more oblits instead of the predators?

I think this list is fine with two Predators.
I'd replace the plasma guns by meltas to get not over 1500 pts.

I see you are going for a death guard theme here which cool but just consider things like power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc don't really care about MoN. For game play MoT is a lot better.

If you take meltaguns on your Plague Marines and then a unit of flamers and perhaps havoc launchers on the Rhinos you'd be ok.

TBH the first list is better, just needs tweaking.

@Mercer: well... vs. meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc you have cover. Ar hino will give a DP cover, while a LR will obscure it from equal tall stuff to the LR.

So the only thing to worry about is the close combat stuff.

But I will agree, I like the first list. By expensive HQ's I did not mean to drop them completely.
But if you do go the second list, the TLLC turrets are a bit much on the Preds.

Sanctjud you're presuming the Rhinos are still there and what if a Prince has just won combat and consolidated out and not behind a Rhino? What if the Prince isn't near a Rhino? My point is the Prince won't be behind Rhinos all the time. So, ranged weapons are a worry as stuff will and can flank a Rhino and blast it, it's not going to pass every cover save you know

Prince has just won combat

Then he did his job.

Sanctjud you're presuming the Rhinos are still there

There is other terrain.

Mercer, I'm just saying that their are other angles to approach it. So saying something is 'better' than another is just asking for it IMO.

it's not going to pass every Invulnerable save you know

Fixed that for you

In another point of view, small arms have been the bane of Princes. IF the opponent is using power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc to take him out... he is doing his job.

If PM's are making the opponent 'have' to deal with them with power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc, they are doing their jobs.

Certainly we can't be holistic 100% of the time, but that's the trouble with examples like these... there are counters at each bend...but we can only suggest options, you with MoT and I with MoN and/or none at all (just to keep him cheap).
And support the rationale however we can.

Hmm...I'd consider a defiler for the heavy choice. Obliterators don't really fit any fluff builds.

Looks fine though...I might suggest having a random squad of melta's to handle tanks. Right now you have barely any anti-tank. Also, as a personal suggestion, some plague bikers might be cool. T6 is murder for your opponent.

Sanctjud wrote:

Prince has just won combat

Then he did his job.

Yes of course he did his job but you're missing my point. Prince consolidates may not end up in cover and getting shot next turn or opponent moves and shoots him.

Sanctjud you're presuming the Rhinos are still there

There is other terrain.

Yes I know. But your opponent can move...

it's not going to pass every Invulnerable save you know

Fixed that for you

These have MoN so 5+ invulnerable. Seems we're talking about cover it's 4+.

The way you're coming across is if your playing against a dumb ass. Princes won't be in cover all the time for various reasons and you opponent can be mobile to make sure those cover saves are no longer possible. My point is a Prince isn't always in cover and will get shot so saying shooting won't kill him isn't correct, especially when you said it's small arms which is the bane, which is true, though if small arms can get a Prince then why not heavy stuff which forces invulnerable i.e mass plasmas for example.

And yes I agree, if all that stuff is tackling Princes then he's taking the flak and other units progress. Works well for me.

I'm just saying Princes won't be in cover and it's false to say they will get cover saves from the weapons I mentioned.

In another point of view, small arms have been the bane of Princes. IF the opponent is using power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc to take him out... he is doing his job.

If PM's are making the opponent 'have' to deal with them with power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc, they are doing their jobs.

Though, I have used MoN in the past and recently changed to MoT. It's when you're not in cover and in combat that invulnerable proves better.

Yes of course he did his job but you're missing my point. Prince consolidates may not end up in cover and getting shot next turn or opponent moves and shoots him.

And my point was that it was moot at that point.
If he charged into combat, it means he survived it. Surviving is immaterial afterwards as they are generally fire and forget.
Granted yes, they won't always be in cover... but I'm saying, why pay for something I 'can' get for free?

Low Ap stuffs are usually high str, great, it's not going to the Rhinos and stuff.
If it's str 7 (aka Plasma) well, it sucks, but it's not like T6 isn't doing anything (they need 3's instead of 2's).

What it really depends on is the owner.
Do you want to mitigate the small arms going at the prince or do they want a persistant inv save? BOTH may or may not be useful in specific situations. BOTH will fail you eventually.

As for moving, yes, you can move, but 'making' you move to get a better angle can be a good thing...not everybody moves and shoots and some units can, but suffere from not shooting at maxmum capacity.

As for my fix, this is better:
"it's not going to pass every save you know."
Anyway, as poor as that was, all I'm saying is that one is paying for something they 'may' get for free in-game. That is a consideration, I'm not saying it's canon.

I'm not saying he won't die to mass plasma, my intentions and assumption were that it was 'wastful' in my eyes as it's not shooting something else that is more important to me to have trucking along.

This is why examples are limiting. You are suggesting a position (that can come up, but is not workable) were... ther rhinos are all dead, the terrain sucks, and i still have 376239846238 plasma guns to shoot you with. Of course your position is stronger...

It's when you're not in cover and in combat that invulnerable proves better.

And what I'm trying to indicate that when the opposite is in effect, there is waste.
Certainly str 8 would waste the T6, but it's still str 8 shots not going against something else.
________________

Bottom line: whatever you want.
It's a personal call to what you want the Prince to do better in surviving against.
I personally would get neither.

Dude your point was the Prince gets cover! My point was it doesn't get it all time! My point is if you're in combat and win then guess what's happening next turn because you're probably not in cover! You said he won't get shot at by the weapon examples because of cover and that's simply not true.

Plasma is only one of the weapons affected by T6. Majority weapons still don't care, which is my point and those are the stuff going for the Prince.

MObility is a lot more common in 40k now especially with bags of weapons the Prince doesn't like i.e hammers, meltas plasma.

I agree that you can get cover for free in the game but when that cover has gone (Rhinos) or not in cover or in combat then it's lost and the T6 doesn't always provide a advantage. Example I won combat consolidated but next turn plasma roles up guns down Prince or I'm in cover behind a Rhino unit repositions blasts Prince.

What I saidis that Rhinos can be taken out I didn't say terrain sucks I can units can reposition to negate cover.

So back to my original point, a Prince won't always be in cover which you said the opposite and my point is correct, the Prince won't always be in cover and will get shot by the strong stuff where MoT comes in and T6 doesn't work so hot.

That's all I've got to say now as it appears going around in circles that the Prince will have cover full time period, which isn't the case.

You said he won't get shot at by the weapon examples because of cover and that's simply not true.

Now I never said that.
I'm saying they are shooting him and not something else which is win/win.
__________________________--

Plasma is only one of the weapons affected by T6. Majority weapons still don't care, which is my point and those are the stuff going for the Prince.

Sure, the Chaos army is still liking that result. Regardless if he has cover in the examples you propose, he 'CAN' get it if every situation was not to the opponent's favor.

Maybe I sound very terminal about it, and it's not my intention. I did not mean to say he will always be in it, but it is easy enough to setup.
I'm not talking about 1 rhino and 1 peice of terrain...there's more than than.
If the opponent has to move to get better shots, that is a good effect.

If the opponent needs stronger stuff vs. the Prince, I don't think any upgrade is useful as the Prince is doing his job regardless and it would just be points better elsewhere.

The few times I do use MoN it was good enough to stop the small arms from downing him, forcing opponents to use heavier weaponry when they didn't want to. That is alot of win in my book, but pricey for it. I don't think I've ever 'needed' a 4++, but that's just me.

No, you said he'd be in cover in your first reply in this post - did you forget that? lol. That's what I've been debating about this whole time, that the Prince won't always be in cover.

Yes, but I didn't say perpetually in cover as you seem to suggest that was my intention. Which was not, sorry for the confusion. I was only proposing it as one counter to your suggestion of why MoT would be 'better'.

So if the ones of you who preferred the first list could kinda concretely tell me how you personally would change it that would be great.

I've already told you how to change the first lsit

I see you are going for a death guard theme here which cool but just consider things like power fists, thunder hammers, meltaguns, lascannons S10 ordnance, plasma etc don't really care about MoN. For game play MoT is a lot better.

If you take meltaguns on your Plague Marines and then a unit of flamers and perhaps havoc launchers on the Rhinos you'd be ok.

TBH the first list is better, just needs tweaking.

I will agree.
First list, lose maybe Warptime for some different special weapons.

Don't start me on warptime either! lol

I think the second list is better, troops are specialized (even if I don't understand why you're not using more plasma guns...), HQ and Heavy will draw your opponent's attention from the begining of the game.

Do you really wish to respect the number of nurgle in your squads ?

I don't know the costs by heart, but you might want to remose the sponsons lascannons on your predators and reduce your troops to 5 men units, which would allow you to get a bonus squad of 5 plague marine whith 2 meltas in a rhino.

too many flamers on the PMs IMO- PMs can handle being in CC- but that's not really their purpose- most lists run PMs with melta guns, I like to split mine with some plasma some melta because dropping out of rhinos and rapid firing 2 plasma guns is devesting

so how about dropping warptime(2x), giving 3 of the squads meltaguns and 1 of them plasmaguns? which leaves me with 16 pts left .