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So skull taker (and some other models) gets a 2+ invuln save versus force weapons. I was wondering how this worked exactly. Can an enemy just decide not to use the force weapon, and if they do then do they lose an attack, or how does that work. Also does the invuln save bonus apply against all their attacks? I take this to mean if they plan to use the force weapon for the power wpn aspect of it, since daemons are immune to instant death, that is the only part that matters, then you get the invuln save of 2+ instead of the armor save you would get without the force wpn 3+, so it seems like they would not want to use it if they did not have to, but do they have a choice?

If you havea force weapon, and no other special weapon, you MUST use it. Any wounds caused by the force weapon ST has a 2+ save against.

A force weapon is a power weapon, so would deny armour saves. All atacks are made with the same weapon, so when the libby makes their attacks all are made witht eh force weapon.

If an enemy, for whatever reason, has another SPECIAL weapon in addition to their force weapon, the enemy may choose to use the non-force weapon, in order to deny the daemon the 2+ save. The model making the attacks does not lose any attacks for doing this. However, as the attacking model clearly has 2 different SPECIAL weapons, they do not get the +1 Attack bonus granted when wielding two one-handed cc weapons.

The force weapon still denies you the armour save. You just happen to get a different Invulnerable save.

Also, I'm not sure why you seem to think that one can only use certain "aspects" of weapons. While it's true that you don't have to use the force weapon's special ability, it is still a force weapon regardless of how you use it.

Force weapon = ID

EW > ID

So Skulltaker is okay.

G

BBF - it isnt even that. Instead of the normal 5+/4+ invulnerable save you would gain against a power weapon (which the force weapon is) you instead get a *2+* save if someone uses a force weapon on you - representing the fact it is psychic energy making it a power weapon instead of the normal power field.

So not only can you not use the FW ID ability, due to EW, any wounds made by the force weapon have a 2+ save against them.

Yeah I get the fact that you get a 2+ inv save against it. what I am asking is does the player running the non daemon force weapon having guy have to use the force weapon? like with a powerful I was always told/understood that if your guy had one you still had the option of not using it, say if you really didn't wanna go on a 1 initiative. since using the force weapon would give skulltaker the 2+ invulnerable, can they choose to not use the force weapon so you only get you 3+ armor save?

Brazila wrote:Yeah I get the fact that you get a 2+ inv save against it. what I am asking is does the player running the non daemon force weapon having guy have to use the force weapon? like with a powerful I was always told/understood that if your guy had one you still had the option of not using it, say if you really didn't wanna go on a 1 initiative. since using the force weapon would give skulltaker the 2+ invulnerable, can they choose to not use the force weapon so you only get you 3+ armor save?

Even if he dosen't use the psychic power related with having a force weapon, the character is still using it to attack normally, as a power weapon, the rules on page 42 (BGB) clearly state he has to use it, so the 2+ save applies.

Hope that helps you understand.

Brazila, this is a change from 4th to 5th edition. Previously you could choose NOT to use your special close combat weapon. Now you don't have that option. You have to use it. If you had a SECOND special weapon, OTOH, you could choose to use that instead.

Brazila - i answered that in my first post: you MUST use a special weapon if you have it; you can only not use a special weapon if you have anpother special weapon to choose to use.

As Mannaheim says this is a big change from 4th ed.

Oh ok thanks guys, guess that means skulltaker on juggernauts rocks the dreadnaught librarian now yay!

where's this rule in the rulebook? id like to bookmark it.

Page 42 if memory serves, have a read of the close combat section including the attacks section.

ok, it doesnt specify whether you have any choice, but does say you gain the special weapons benefits. theres nothing to say you are forced to use a special weapon, but rather a combined effect is created.

raw it seems to assume you're not being penalised by a detrimental second effect and such a sitiation has not been considered.

i think within the framework of the rules you dont get a choice because your attacks are not say, 3 attacks with a power sword and 1 with bolt pistol, but 4 attacks with the benefits of the special weapon.

gw ahould faq this as it seems to be a an oversight on their part.

It is not an oversight at all: you are compelled to use your special weapon (page 42 actually does say you must do X, under fighting with a normal and special) and in this VERY specific circumstance it is actually not a benefit to you at all.

In a massively and totally fluffy way, as well.

actually no, you are not compelled to use your special weapon, thats an interpretation that is reasonable, but not definite.

with a special and a non special attack what happens is that it creates a hybrid - you get attacks that have the BENEFITS given by the special weapon but with an extra attack.

it is a subtle difference and from a games mechanics perspective it makes sense as you always want to use those benefits and it speeds things up as you dont need to make seperate rolls to hit, wound or save against... except in skulltakers case.

from a common sense perspective youd use the weapon that would be most effective against a target you would fight, not one which is less effective, though more effective vs OTHER things.

then theres the part about two special weapons and getting to choose which one to use. why should you be allowed to choose which special weapon you want to use but not be allowed to choose a bolt pistol when it would be better for the situation?

youd end up with one less attack of course since special weapons dont give an extra attack unless paired.

Actually its p.35 that states

All engaged models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have

If you have a special CCW, you must use it. My tactical terminators can't smack you with their stormbolters because they have powerfists which are special ccws (giving them a special close combat attack).

Vanhammer_Bard wrote:actually no, you are not compelled to use your special weapon, thats an interpretation that is reasonable, but not definite.

with a special and a non special attack what happens is that it creates a hybrid - you get attacks that have the BENEFITS given by the special weapon but with an extra attack.

it is a subtle difference and from a games mechanics perspective it makes sense as you always want to use those benefits and it speeds things up as you dont need to make seperate rolls to hit, wound or save against... except in skulltakers case.

from a common sense perspective youd use the weapon that would be most effective against a target you would fight, not one which is less effective, though more effective vs OTHER things.

then theres the part about two special weapons and getting to choose which one to use. why should you be allowed to choose which special weapon you want to use but not be allowed to choose a bolt pistol when it would be better for the situation?

youd end up with one less attack of course since special weapons dont give an extra attack unless paired.

Take a gander over here http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_FAQ_40Krulebook_Feb2010.pdf

The relevant passage here though is:

Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Errata wrote:Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use
the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

So, you are forced to use the force weapon if it's the only special weapon you have because you have to use it's bonuses and penalties.

Brazila wrote:Oh ok thanks guys, guess that means skulltaker on juggernauts rocks the dreadnaught librarian now yay!

Only if the Librarian Dread lost its Blood Fist already.