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Hey all,
I really didn't want it to come to asking a forum on anonymous people to help me decide this, but I'm just outright stumped.

So here is my dilemma, I'm starting WHFB again after a 3 year hiatus (just couldn't find anyone to play with, but now with the new release there are people interested).
I'm stuck between a few choices about which army to start.

In sensible Pro/Con format, I present my choices;

Skaven: This is the army I played before, I did enjoy them somewhat 3 years ago, but my attitude has changed and I'm not feeling as attached to the furry rats as before...
Pros: "Mad-scientist" army style, cool contraptions and decent magic and shooting. Character generally look cool, especially the upcoming IoB set models. IoB set makes them easy to start and cheaper to start. Great army character, each hero and lord can have a personality and can be very dynamic and often hilarious. Fair variety in the army and they have siege weapons, which is a plus because I do enjoy siege weapons.
Cons: Rank'n'file not so attractive looking (imo), I just don't like some of their choices (like giant rats) mostly from an aesthetic standpoint, horde army makes it a bit more consuming to try to paint and model everything.

Tomb Kings: I'm attracted to this army mostly from the aesthetic of Ancient Egypt and I think it has a great theme.
Pros: Chariots- I do like chariots from a thematic standpoint, but am afraid of chariots being not effective enough. Lots of variety in the units able to be fielded, from skeletons and skeleton horsemen and skeleton chariots- up to ushabti, tomb scorps, and bone giants. They're due for an Army Book update soon (rumoured end of this year beginning on next year), so any issues with rules or ineffective units may likely be cleared up then. Tomb Guard look cool on the table and bigger models offer some great converting opportunity.
Cons: No real character to the army. At least, I don't feel like there is. "I'm a mummified Pharaoh, I've come to reclaim my land and artifacts!" isn't very dynamic, and hardly humorous (which I do put weight in because this is afterall a game). Skeletons aren't very effective troops unless they're in hordes or bowmen... Skeletons also aren't very attractive to paint up in the end, though some of the other units are. Again, lots of models to paint up.

Dwarfs: I've always enjoyed the Dwarfs, and their access to lots of warmachines is attractive.
Pros: Great personality to the army, each Dwarf can be his own character (moreso than just another rat in a horde of rats). Plenty of warmachines, especially cannons which are great. Great magic defense. Infantry have great stats. Some good options to field infantry in different ways (miners, slayers, rangers). The runic style of making magic items is cool because it allows for a lot of customization and imo is better than the "prebuilt items" armoury in other armies. Again, GREAT personality to the army. Modeling and Painting is good, not too many models, but allows for plenty of detail painting and painting beards can be fun... The Lords/Heroes can all have a lot of character and look good. I can still field a "mad scientist" sort of army with engineers with awesome machines, but not as much as Skaven...
Cons: A dwarf is just a dwarf. In other words, the army is guns and dwarfs. No cavalry (I still want Dwarven Bear Cavalry), nothing different to break up the rank'n'file stunties. The only thing that makes this dwarf different from that dwarf is apparently the color of his beard. I'm just really feeling like Dwarfs are sort of boring because they're stuck with blocks of infantry and warmachines. The gyro just isn't enough to cut the samey-ness throughout the army. Maybe I'm wrong or someone has some input on how to break up the monotony a bit? ...Unfortunately not enough variety to build mad scientist themes because apparently Dwarf engineers only ever craft guns... and gyrocopters.

I've also thought about doing Lizardmen, but a friend has his heart set on it- so I've opted to go another direction. The main attraction would be the Carnosaur and the characters... the lack of 'real' warmachines is a bit disheartening... the Salamanders and Steggie isn't quite right for me.




Currently, I'm leaning on Dwarfs, slightly towards Skaven. Tomb Kings is moreso just an afterthought- as I'm just not feeling attached to them.
Skaven is holding on because I've played them before, know just how effective they can be, and will be easy/cheap to start up...
Dwarfs are the heavcy-weight contender, but I am hesitant because I'm concerned that they can be a bit boring in terms of different units.

Get rid of the blue and red. I'm not going to strain my eyes trying to read that.

Dwarfs are only boring if you play the stupid cheesy gunlines that gave them a bad name. Dwarfs are pretty strong now due to them being able to charge almost as fast as any other unit and having high toughness and armor on relatively cheap troops.
Skaven is very strong now due to them being able to take huge numbers of troops, but it's understandable that you probably dont want to build a horde as it is extremely time consuming.
Tomb Kings are getting a new book as early as October or so AFAIK (you might want to check that, not exactly sure) so starting them now might not be that great. Even if their magic is a ton better, the fact is their troops are still going to die in droves and not kill very much. The Casket of Souls got a lot better and the catapults hit a lot harder now, but the army still has flaws. I would definitely wait until the new book comes out to start.

O GOD THE TEXT IT BURNS!!!!

Aduro wrote:Get rid of the blue and red. I'm not going to strain my eyes trying to read that.

This. Could only read it by highlighting it all

I'd say if you like a horde army with a nice miniature range go Skaven. They're very competitive this edition. Tomb Kings are okay. But i would maybe do them at a later date once they get updated rulebook and new miniatures.

Dwarfs are great in this edition as well. Tough and shooty. And can REALLY mess people up in close combat now. The lack of cavalry units I feel is made up for greatly now with the longer charge ranges. Plus the variety of units is good also. Plus they're all viable depending on what your fielding. Large blocks of slayers on the charge will be something for your enemy to truly fear. Ironbreakers are great for holding your center lines or a flank. And hammerers though not as good as last edition can still perform admirably. Plus your basic troops can be great as well for their points cost. Its worth giving a unit of quarreler scouts some shields and sit them in some forest to snipe at your enemies flanks. They can tempt away cavalry from the main fight to deal with them. Even then they'll be stubborn from being scouts in a forest with a great armour save. Meaning that they can stand a good chance of surviving most but the strongest foes. Strong units that arent in the main battle.

I would recommend dwarfs. A cannon, organ gun (few other machines in bigger battles ) supporting decent ( 20-30) infantry blocks and some thunderers and quarrelers. Then depending on what takes your fancy some Ironbreakers to take the heavy hits and hammerers/slayers to counter charge. Or add more artillery. Sure the units aren't as varied as some armies but whats there is good. You could always mix it up a little by adding the anvil of doom to your battles. Plus miners by the way work very well in tandem with scouts or as a flank charge once units are in combat with your main line troops.

Their main drawback actually is by and large they'll be always outnumbered. Thankfully with dwarf artillery being amongst the best around. Very few units will hit your front lines unscathed.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Dwarfs are only boring if you play the stupid cheesy gunlines that gave them a bad name.

This

I only despise playing dwarfs because none of the dwarf players in my area run anything interesting. Its all gunline and magic defense.

By "boring" I mean that most of the dwarf units are generally only different from one another by the color of their beard and the weapon/special rules they're run with...
There isn't cavalry or monsters to break up the lines of Dwarfs, beyond maybe some warmachines here or there.

Do any of you feel that fielding/painting/modeling Dwarfs seems a bit monotonous? This dwarf has a brown beard, this dwarf has a white beard and it gives him this special rule, this dwarf has an orange beard and it makes him has these rules... etc.
I just feel like if the Dwarf engineers are so amazing, why aren't there more warmachines than just guns? (like... how'd the Empire get a steam tank before the Dwarfs?)
What ever happened to the Doomseekers and Goblin Hewer that were around a while back? I miss that kind of Dwarf engineering... "let's make a weapon that shoots axes..."


That's what I like about Skaven... they have that mad scientist sort of thing going on. Creating monsters, weapons of mass destruction, virulent plagues... etc.
But I just don't really like the rank'n'file troops. The only thing I really like about Skaven are the zany warmachines and silly characters.
While I like the mad scientist theme, demons (ala ) and being "bloated with disease" is just not at all attractive... if I wanted to play a Nurgle Chaos army, I'd play WoC or DoC...

I'm not asking you to be a therapist and help me work everything out. I'm just looking for some opinions from Dwarf and Skaven players about the armies so I can work it out on my own.

In_Theory wrote:By "boring" I mean that most of the dwarf units are generally only different from one another by the color of their beard and the weapon/special rules they're run with...
There isn't cavalry or monsters to break up the lines of Dwarfs, beyond maybe some warmachines here or there.

Do any of you feel that fielding/painting/modeling Dwarfs seems a bit monotonous? This dwarf has a brown beard, this dwarf has a white beard and it gives him this special rule, this dwarf has an orange beard and it makes him has these rules... etc.
I just feel like if the Dwarf engineers are so amazing, why aren't there more warmachines than just guns? (like... how'd the Empire get a steam tank before the Dwarfs?)
What ever happened to the Doomseekers and Goblin Hewer that were around a while back? I miss that kind of Dwarf engineering... "let's make a weapon that shoots axes..."


That's what I like about Skaven... they have that mad scientist sort of thing going on. Creating monsters, weapons of mass destruction, virulent plagues... etc.
But I just don't really like the rank'n'file troops. The only thing I really like about Skaven are the zany warmachines and silly characters.
While I like the mad scientist theme, demons (ala ) and being "bloated with disease" is just not at all attractive... if I wanted to play a Nurgle Chaos army, I'd play WoC or DoC...

I'm not asking you to be a therapist and help me work everything out. I'm just looking for some opinions from Dwarf and Skaven players about the armies so I can work it out on my own.

Because dwarfs are ultra conservative compared to the empires engineers. And focus on reliability above all else. And this is reflected in what they make. The engineers guild is massively controlling on whats officially allowed to be made. Those that dont follow guild rules can face exile. Theres a few exceptions like Makiasson but they're exceptionally gifted. The dwarf gyrocopter is still labelled as radical for a lot of dwarfs.

If you like the Goblin-hewer you could always field it as a counts as organ gun.

Skaven, because their coming in the new starter set

I want to like Tomb Kings but they have HIDEOUS models. Their lords are sucky, like you said. And their magic is kinda dull, even if it can be effective. And they mostly just plod plod forward except for a couple really cool units like Bone Giants and Scorps.

Dwarfs have personality. It sounds like you like their goofiness potential like me. Grab a bunch of helicopters and slayers and be Team Rambo. You can do a lot of funny stuff like that. And they're so grumpy!

Skaven are also neat and I agree that a bunch of their models are just too...ratty. I never liked the billions of models idea. But their war machine are hillarious, their spells (2 unique lists!) kick ass, and they got some pretty cool models with all that warpstone nastyness.

In the end, focus on what concepts you enjoy, and don't really worry about power gaming. You'll have much more fun losing with an interesting army than winning with a dull one.

DukeRustfield wrote:I want to like Tomb Kings but they have HIDEOUS models. Their lords are sucky, like you said. And their magic is kinda dull, even if it can be effective. And they mostly just plod plod forward except for a couple really cool units like Bone Giants and Scorps.

Dwarfs have personality. It sounds like you like their goofiness potential like me. Grab a bunch of helicopters and slayers and be Team Rambo. You can do a lot of funny stuff like that. And they're so grumpy!

Skaven are also neat and I agree that a bunch of their models are just too...ratty. I never liked the billions of models idea. But their war machine are hillarious, their spells (2 unique lists!) kick ass, and they got some pretty cool models with all that warpstone nastyness.

In the end, focus on what concepts you enjoy, and don't really worry about power gaming. You'll have much more fun losing with an interesting army than winning with a dull one.

Very well put. Do what you enjoy the most of. Then make it work on the tabletop.

Thanks for the input, that really is my dilemma- Dwarfs and Skaven both have their warm fuzzy place in my heart (...beards and rats...), that's what is making it difficult.

Dwarfs can potentially have some fun and the character of the army can be both stern and humorous at times, and a lot of warmachines is always fun.

Skaven can also be quite fun, especially with the wild warmachines they have, and the army is almost always humorous.



So what are some of your favorite elements/moments/units in a Dwarfs or Skaven army and why?

I'm just trying to get some idea of what to expect to make a good decision... I appreciate the input.

Also, Orcs and Gobbo army can be really zany. I mean suicide dive bombers! Hopping squig bouncers. And you also got choppy Black Orks that look cool.

You need a special kind of insanity to play Skaven. Not that you shouldn't though.

I'd also hold up on Tomb Kings, they're due for a new book and some plastic-lovin'

I'd suggest either Dwarves of Skaven. Though both don't have cavalry, it falls down to horde-shooty or elite-shooty (however, thanks to 8th Dwarves can get the charge, and Skaven can easily get steadfast)