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I've been toying with the idea of adding 10 Cold one cavalry to my lizzies, and wondering if its worth the points, they're almost as much as chaos knights!!

I like the idea of the extra maneuvrability but can't help but think that a unit of 30 Saurus with FC, HW and shield would be infinitely better.

Thoughts please?!

The local Lizard player at my FLGS uses a unit of 5 for flanking purposes with a certain amount of success. Perhaps with a combat character included it could work well. I'm not sure if 10 of them would be worth the points though.

Yeah 10 is a bit much. I think that they would be great as a unit of 6 with a Musician, and a Standard Bearer carrying the Razor Standard (Armor Piercing Cold Ones Yay).

5 with a scar vet on cold one with the +d6 charge totem is pretty nasty....

The unit charges, 7 +3d6(drop the lowest)+d6 inches... so on average, 17-18 inches...

I think a small unit is okay, as said for flanking. But they are pricey and don't seem to offer that much.

They were below average in 7th and even worse in 8th.. No rank breaking was a huge hit as theyre only really good on the charge otherwise ill just take 3 saurus warriors

I can't speak for Lizzies, but DE have been running Cold One Cav in units of 5 naked for a while now. Having stupidity makes large blocks of the very risky; you gamble having them go stupid on a critical turn and geting ganked.

Well, Stupidity is less of an issue with LM since you'll be rolling it on 3 Dice.

They aren't relly worth it. Stupid makes them unreliable, and they cost to much to bring in numbers.

I like the thought of them with the banner that gives you an extra D6 charge range. 4D6 minus the lowest +7" for a charge range? Hells yes!

I have had good luck with them. 3 attacks per model is pretty good, 2 of those attacks being spear bonus on the charge. Their WS leaves a bit to be desired, but I'm used to empire knights, not every knight can be WS5+ gods like chaos after all.

Chaos knights are the closest thing to compare them to, so lets look at that: 40 points gets you 2 attacks at S5 and 1 at 4 at an elite WS and I of 5 and armor 1+. Cold ones get the same stats except WS 4 and armor 2+ (and slower initiative) and are 35 points.

So the Cold one cav are slightly over costed in comparison to chaos, a 5 point discount isn't a good deal, but its not a bad cost for them.

DE have 27 point knights, but each knight only has 2 attacks per model, although one is at S6 on the charge, and have T3. Empire and bret knights have even cheaper knights, but they are human stated and their cost reflects that.

IMHO I think cold one cav should probably cost about 2-5 points less per model, or DE knights should cost a little more, about 30 per (and reduce their S to 5 on the charge, but give them a second attack)

As for how I run them: They are meant to be active combat res for your blocks to work with (flanking), or as a small unit hunting force, so I don't give them any command other than maybe music (for swift reforms) They give lizards the chance to have a tough, strong, and mobile unit compared to skink based units which are not tough or hard hitting.

Cold ones get the same stats except WS 4 and armor 2+ (and slower initiative) and are 35 points.

Yes they get same stats except totally different and inferior.. Lower initiative is a huge deal now and that along with being unable to remove steadfast or break ranks realistically makes them fairly pointless to me.. Strength 5 isnt a big deal

For the cost of 5 cold ones with command + 160 pt hero you can get a huge block of saurus and just march them at the enemy.. 6 knights vs 30 saurus? hmm tough choice there

Want flankers? use salamanders.. and just flame cannon the enemy to death

Thanks for all the advice guys. You basically covered my thought processes, they could occassionally be useful but too much of a points sink, especially in 8th. Thanks all.

There are just way too many things of better value, I'd even put kroxigor ahead of cold one cav.

Kirasu wrote:

Cold ones get the same stats except WS 4 and armor 2+ (and slower initiative) and are 35 points.

Yes they get same stats except totally different and inferior.. Lower initiative is a huge deal now and that along with being unable to remove steadfast or break ranks realistically makes them fairly pointless to me.. Strength 5 isnt a big deal

For the cost of 5 cold ones with command + 160 pt hero you can get a huge block of saurus and just march them at the enemy.. 6 knights vs 30 saurus? hmm tough choice there

Want flankers? use salamanders.. and just flame cannon the enemy to death

Don't take the hero. Really DON'T TAKE THE HERO. It nearly DOUBLES the cost of the unit. For 4 attacks +1 mount, I would rather just have another unit. I also Ditch the command, too expensive for nearly no value in their expected role (though music is more useful than it used to be). 175-185 for a unit is very efficient.

As for the unit of 30 saurus: why would you take such a large unit? The most I go for is 18 with music and a banner. Other armies can do big blocks better and cheaper. Saurus are about tough guys who hit reasonably hard. I take them in a way to maximize attacks. So 6 wide 3 deep with spears. Anything more than that IMHO is a waste and the points better spent on other units.

5 knights put out 15 attacks of pure active combat res. 2/3s of that is S5. Which DOES matter. Wounds most things on 2s -2 to armor (negating many units armor, and bringing most knights to a 4+). Sure they won't beat block units, but that was true last edition. Use them to kill small units, or use them as a supporting charge from a flank. You did read the rest of my post right?

As for salamanders being effective flankers: I think you mistake what a flanking unit is supposed to be doing. What you describe is ranged support. Sure, you deploy a unit like this on the flank, you don't have as many potential threat vectors to worry about. But it doesn't put any real pressure on that flank at all. It just attritions the opponent's flanking units (something worth doing, but its comparing apples to oranges) The CC potential of a salamander isn't bad, but it isn't that strong for its CC frontage and points.

The important stats for knights are: how hard it is to kill, and how hard it hits. WS and I matter only when you are facing things you probably shouldn't try to kill with them. Losing the ability to cheaply negate ranks and remove steadfast is a pretty hard nerf to ALL knight units, sure, doesn't take away their value as a fast hard hitting and tough threat. Lizards CC units are all pretty slow, having a faster unit is a worthwhile thing to have.

You know what, if you want a unit of ten, go for it. Ive been using a unit of 10 DE Cold one knights for a while now and will continue to do so. In my last game I charged and mowed down a unit of 6 Ushabti with attached tomb king. Stick a BSB nearby and now you get to reroll your stupid checks. Thats what I do and stupid hasnt been a problem at all. Your low initiative is a big advocate for taking a bigger unit as well. That way you can loose some at higher In steps before you start loosing alot of attacks. So, do what you want, I say go for it.

The one thing that makes me urk about knights is the spells or weapons that ignore or greatly reduce armor save.

Also squads that armies take specifically to cut down knights (such as executioners, white lions, etc.)

10 CoC w/ magic banner probably at least 425, before adding any characters in. 425 points for 10 wounds total is steep.

Same cost as 33 Spear saurus full command. Or 36 with hand weapons. They would stay sharp enough to defeat enemy units far longer than the knights. Knights lose 2 models and they can't negate ranks anymore.

The stats of a saurus cavalry don't seem to justify him costing as much as 3 or 4 saurus on foot, but that's just my opinion.

TheBloodGod wrote:The one thing that makes me urk about knights is the spells or weapons that ignore or greatly reduce armor save.

Also squads that armies take specifically to cut down knights (such as executioners, white lions, etc.)

10 CoC w/ magic banner probably at least 425, before adding any characters in. 425 points for 10 wounds total is steep.

Same cost as 33 Spear saurus full command. Or 36 with hand weapons. They would stay sharp enough to defeat enemy units far longer than the knights. Knights lose 2 models and they can't negate ranks anymore.

The stats of a saurus cavalry don't seem to justify him costing as much as 3 or 4 saurus on foot, but that's just my opinion.

Executioners are actually bad at taking down knights, Always strikes last and T3 5+ means they die before striking. If taken in really large units they can do some damage, but then why are knights anywhere near something like that?

Then don't take 10 FC with magic banner.... Take them cheap, run them at targets of your choice. Expect them to die, and don't care since they weren't that expensive. Tactical flexibility is especially important in slow moving armies like lizards.

The only knights I would take in large units are human ones.

Knights can't suddenly switch sides. If you deploy knights on the left side of your army, and the opponent drops a big block of executioners across from it, it'd take many many turns of movement to turn backwards and do a half circle around your entire army.

For the cost of those 10 knights, the DE can afford a squad of 33 executioners. The knights run screaming away? Then the execs march straight up that flank and start to slaughter things in your army.

Even if the knights do charge them, the execs would survive, kill knights on 2+ with each swing.

What happens when the opponent deploys a decent combat squad on left and right side? The Knights aren't tough enough to take anything of equal points 1v1.

The 33-36 saurus on foot would stand some chance of pushing up the flank and killing the executioners where the cavalry cannot.

I agree with many of the above posters- lizardmen cold ones are well worth it, but usually work best in smaller units. I don't see them, or knights for other armies such as chaos, going away at all. They still kill stuff, which is really what a lot of things come down to in the end! They just can't roll through the whole enemy army like they could before!

I would be interested in hearing how a unit of 10 fares, if you do try them out, as well.

For the cost of 10 CoC, you could get an EotG with Lvl.3 and cupped hands or some other magic item.

11 S6 attacks (2d6 + 1 of which auto-hit) if it survives the puny attacks when it charges the flank against its T6 5 wounds. Then the crew's 5 S3 added. Then add the d6 S4 auto-hits ignoring armor to all enemy within 2d6" from burning.

But in addition you get a 5+ ward save on all units nearby, and you gain a lvl.3 wizard with lore of heavens.

OR, 10 knights is almost as much as 6 Salamander flamethrower crews.or Razordons.
Slightly less than the cost of 8 Kroxigors.

Hmm... 24 S6 attacks, 24 wounds total.
or 16 S5 attacks + 5 S4 attacks, 10 wounds total. Tough call.

I played a game yesterday with 15 empire inner circle knights, grand master and a fighty captain and they chewed through 2 30 man squads of plague monks (sheer kills, no running down) a giant, a unit of 20 clanrats and Lord skrolk. In the end though only the 2 heroes were left but not bad i think!

However, they're 10 points cheaper each than CoC so their cost is justifiable. I think for me, the points cost just outweighs their effectiveness, if they were 30 points each though, thats another story!!