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Dakkites,

Please look at this list and see if you see any blatant stupidity.

Situation: I have never played 5th, but I want an all infantry shooty army. There's only six guys left to paint/repaint, before I go to the FLGS to get my ass stomped.

Plan: Simply shoot and mortar the hell out of anyone, hoping they use reserves and I go first. I have plenty of infantry for speed bumps, contesting objectives, just getting in the way, and bubble wrap for the commander. I'm guessing I should do alright against most opponents, with the exceptions of dawn of war scenarios, drop pod armies, or other guard.

There's 186 bodies with: 64 flashlights, 12 grenade launchers, 24 mortars, and 31 other heavy weapons.

Company Commander 165
2 x Grenade Launchers, Vox, Regimental Banner, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, and Master of Ordnance

1rst Platoon Commander 50
lp/ccw, grenade launcher, vox, mortar team

3 Infantry Squads 240
each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox

4 Lascannon Squads 420
1 Missile Squad 90

2cd Platoon Commander 50
lp/ccw, grenade launcher, vox, mortar team

2 Infantry Squads 160
each with lascannon, flamer, and vox

3 Autocannon Squads 225
2 Mortar Squads 120

3rd Platoon Commander 50
lp/ccw, grenade launcher, mortar team

2 Infantry Squads 160
each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox

5 Mortar Squads 300


Thanks Baconfat

Yeah, this is definitely a 4th ed list.

The problem is that this is missing some key 5th ed components that will cause you to lose a lot of games because of these differences.

For one, 5th ed requires mobility. Your army has none. Parking your butt is going to lose you lots and lots of objectives games.

Secondly, heavy weapons took a big hit in 5th ed. This means that your infantry-heavy-weapon-spam army actually has deceptively less firepower than you think it does.

Thirdly, the rules for close combat have changed. While infantry are now more resilient to shooting, they now get swept off the field with frightening speed by assaults. The only way to handle this problem is with commissars (and/or Chenkov).

As such, I fear your prediction of getting your ass stomped will come true more often than not. Your army is very light on firepower (especially in the anti-tank division) which means that a lot of highly-mobile enemies will get to you and blow you off the table in assault, leaving them to take or at least contest objectives with ease.

Unfortunately, the only way around this is to fundamentally restructure your firepower, which will take a lot of time and bother. If you insist on getting to the field with a list that looks like this in a timely manner, then at least ditch a few mortar squads to get some commissars with power weapons and some sergeant power weapons and meltabombs (counts-as if you must), and make ample use of the "combined squads" rule.

Firstly why do you hope your opponent holds reserves and you got first? Sure you have a Astropath to block reserves but you go first and less for you to shoot at. Let the opponent go first so if any units do come in you have more targets and if they don't then they don't.

I think if you sorted some wargear out and added artillery along with longer range weapons i.e autocannons or lascannons it would be better. Drop all the short ranged stuff i.e grenade launchers and get Creed as he rules foot lists. Then you'll have a proper gunline.

For an all foot list, I'd actually consider two CCS squads. Creed is a must, and I'd consider Kell just to be able to cheap out on voxcasters. Kell also makes HWS semi-viable.

mercer wrote:Firstly why do you hope your opponent holds reserves and you got first? Sure you have a Astropath to block reserves but you go first and less for you to shoot at. Let the opponent go first so if any units do come in you have more targets and if they don't then they don't.

That's actually the officer of the fleet that screws up opponent's reserves. That said, hoping your opponent holds in reserves every game is really silly, as, against your list, it's unlikely to ever happen.

mercer wrote:I think if you sorted some wargear out and added artillery along with longer range weapons i.e autocannons or lascannons it would be better. Drop all the short ranged stuff i.e grenade launchers and get Creed as he rules foot lists. Then you'll have a proper gunline.

This WOULD, in fact, give you a proper infantry gunline.

The problem is that infantry gunlines are the product of 3rd ed. In 5th ed, you will lose a LOT of games with this strategy/list build.

Thanks for the replies,

Mercer,

I was thinking that by going first and slowing the enemy reserves I could focus all the firepower on small quantities of troops. Killing or pinning them until the next small batch shows up. But Ailaros' point, opened my blind eyes, it would be silly to use reserves versus a gunline and subject ones self to piece meal death.

I was hoping that 19 lascannons, 9 autocannons, 3 missile launchers, and Master of Ordnance would be enough antitank.

I could dump two of the 6 mortar squads and all the vox for 175 points

That would leave just enough points for points for a 3 meltagun veteran squad (100 pts) and an autocannon HWS (75). I'll just have to buy three more autocannons, ugh.

Daedalus/Ailaros,

I was thinking on the way home from work that all my Vox might be unneeded, because with so many HWS bases and infantry no ones going to have very good line of sight. This army takes up most of the deployment zone. But I'll try a time with a proxy Kell, before I shell out the $22 bucks.

I do have alot of stuff painted just not Commissars, power weapons, or special characters.

Here's what I have painted and available to change my army list around.

41 lascannon teams,
20 missile teams,
9 Autocannon teams
24 Heavy Bolter teams
24 mortar teams
13 melta teams
13 flamer teams
14 plasma teams
16 grenade launcher teams
6 demo charge teams
9 sniper teams
6 Ogryn
25 Ratlings
10 Infantry Squads
1 Carapace Infantry Squad
1 Psyker Battle Squad
tons of generic officers

- Bacon

well, this means you're looking for an infantry army, then

What I'd do, to make a 2000 point list with what you've got is to take 4 infantry platoons.

Each infantry platoon consists of a PCS with some special weapons, an SWS with 3 demo charges (the third and fourth platoons have meltaguns), and 3 infantry squads. Paint one of your generic officers black, and he magically becomes a commissar.

Then, through the power of "counts as", one of the infantry platoons has al'rahem, and the CCS has an astropath to go with it.

This should take up something like 1500 points or so. From there, you can decide to make it more assaulty and "counts as" all the sergeants and commissar with power weapons, and make your commanding officer a counts-as Straken (use a power fist officer if possible), and throw in your ogryn.

Alternately, if you want to play it cooler, then take a FEW HWSs (like one per platoon, max), and some more SWSs and the psyker battle squad.

In either case, you're looking at at least 172 "stubborn" guardsmen, some of whom outflank with demo charges. I dare you to find an opponent who would be able to table your force, much less throw enough 30-man power blobs off the table in order to strip you off objectives.

Ailaros has a real grudge against infantry heavy weapons, but about your list he is partially right - you need some of your infantry to have commissars (and IMO power weapons as well) because many armies will manage to assault you, and many games will require you to go forward and claim objectives with close range fire or assaults.

Also, HWS are prone to running away, easy to kill with S6 firwpower, etc. Your list has 22-26 KPs, it could easily go lower by more emphasis on blob squads with commissars. Generally, I suppose you'd want at least 2 infantry squads per SWS/HWS.

Also agree with using Creed or Straken, those characters seem totally worth it in an infantry army.

Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:Firstly why do you hope your opponent holds reserves and you got first? Sure you have a Astropath to block reserves but you go first and less for you to shoot at. Let the opponent go first so if any units do come in you have more targets and if they don't then they don't.

That's actually the officer of the fleet that screws up opponent's reserves. That said, hoping your opponent holds in reserves every game is really silly, as, against your list, it's unlikely to ever happen.

mercer wrote:I think if you sorted some wargear out and added artillery along with longer range weapons i.e autocannons or lascannons it would be better. Drop all the short ranged stuff i.e grenade launchers and get Creed as he rules foot lists. Then you'll have a proper gunline.

This WOULD, in fact, give you a proper infantry gunline.

The problem is that infantry gunlines are the product of 3rd ed. In 5th ed, you will lose a LOT of games with this strategy/list build.

Thanks for the info on the OftF. And yes, it's very silly.

I totally agree, though some people seem to love lining up soliders across one end of the board to the other and shooting stuff, god knows why lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baconfat wrote:Thanks for the replies,

Mercer,

I was thinking that by going first and slowing the enemy reserves I could focus all the firepower on small quantities of troops. Killing or pinning them until the next small batch shows up. But Ailaros' point, opened my blind eyes, it would be silly to use reserves versus a gunline and subject ones self to piece meal death.

I was hoping that 19 lascannons, 9 autocannons, 3 missile launchers, and Master of Ordnance would be enough antitank.

I could dump two of the 6 mortar squads and all the vox for 175 points

That would leave just enough points for points for a 3 meltagun veteran squad (100 pts) and an autocannon HWS (75). I'll just have to buy three more autocannons, ugh.

I wouldn't bank on the reserves mate. Reserve odds are pretty decent.

I didn't say you didn't have enough anti tank, though MoO doesn't that full scatter? If so it's pointless.

I wont lie I hate playing IG they are far too cheap points wise compared to other races and their weapons are pretty much SM weapons they get for cheaper. I have played games that have lasted only 3 rounds because of the shooting they have and that kinda sucks when you want to play a full game and have a bit of fun only to be insta-slaughtered. I would have to say the dirtiest thing the IG have is the Russ tanks those are kinda rough when you pay more for a LR and it can't shoot like that or move in the same fashion. But I suppose its whatever I will just ave to figure a way around it lol.

Dude Space Marines pay 10 points for a meltagun so do Imperial Guard...Marines pay 15 points for a plasma gun so do Marines. Weapons are the same and the same points

You pay more for a Land Raider because it's armour 14 all the way round and not 14-13-10 which is a huge difference. Plus it has transport compactity, more guns and it can still fire if it moves 12".

I don't know what you're complained at about the Guard for TBH.

mercer wrote:Dude Space Marines pay 10 points for a meltagun so do Imperial Guard...Marines pay 15 points for a plasma gun so do Marines. Weapons are the same and the same points

You pay more for a Land Raider because it's armour 14 all the way round and not 14-13-10 which is a huge difference. Plus it has transport compactity, more guns and it can still fire if it moves 12".

I don't know what you're complained at about the Guard for TBH.

imo I still think weapons should cost a bit more seeing as the troops cost almost nothing.

Bloodfrenzy187, are any of those opinions at all relevant to the army list being discussed?

Baconfat, I forgot to say that MoO is terrible, because you will literally never hit what you aim at, so there's a very slim chance of an effective shot (if it scatters onto an enemy unit) a large chance of a wasted shot (scatters into empty space) and a slim chance of a hilarious catastrophe (scatters onto your models).

Mortars aren't often fielded in numbers, because most armies (especially those favoured by savvy players) are heavily mechanised and thus immune to S4 weapons, and/or entirely marines, so really resistant to low strength templates.

I do think the number of lascannons and missile launchers is ok, but they'd be better with creed+kell to enhance effectiveness. Some meltaguns are a good idea, because if you can destroy any AV14 targets (ie land raiders, one of the most common tanks in the game) with meltaguns, your lascannons can spend their time shooting at AV11-12, which they're much more likely to be effective against.

1. Scrap mortars, MoO
2. Get special HQs
3. Bulk up infantry squad blobs, add commissars and power weapons to at least some (scrap further HWSs if necessary)
4. Profit.

A word on weapon choices. I think using PCS with 3 flamers and a vox is a good choice. If nasty assault units pitch up in front of your blobs, the PCS can step up and roast them. If the blob gets assaulted and destroyed, the PCS can take vengeance. This leaves you free to put longer-ranged choices in the blob itself. I don't think range is a big deal - most armies will try and get their units within 24" of you, and succeed in a couple turns. And Ailaros has a point about objectives. Even if the HW choice is very different, meltaguns in a blob squad can prevent your opponent tank shocking you off a valuable objective.

Awww come on guys I play CSM's and Imperial Guard is one of the more stubborn for forces as they can have so many troops on the table. Its true some of his army needs proper heavy weapons I say Auto-cannons as they are nice. And I agree Creed is needed as well as several close combat units, mortor teams are my fav but thats me. He really needs some armor a Basilisk or Leman Russ would do it, he also needs to take Chimeras for squads that can take em. Imperial guards strongest value is its numbers take the vehicles and arm them with efective support weapons and take and hold objectives. I am just starting my Traitor Guard and all I got a a full HQ Platoon and no infanrty so my army list is kinda his reverse. I got chimeras and thats cool I need about 50 guardsmen to fill out my army, good luck and as I always say "Charge them! And remove them from my Battlefeild!"

Creed, Astropath, Al’Rahim, Infantry Blobs with Commissars and PW’s, drop the Mortars and Vox’s – replace them with Autocannons if you can (heavy bolters if you have to). For the infantry blobs, Creed lets you outflank one units and Al’Rahim does as well. Make sure these platoons have meltagun Platoon Command squads and Flamers in the regular squads, also include power weapons on the PHQ and at least one Commissar in the Squads with a PW.

Creed can issue 4 commands and Al’rahim can issue another 2. I wouldnt have more than 6 or 7 HW squads because of this. Lascannon and Autocannon for these guys for sure. Instead of mortars take special weapons teams and send them with the outflanking squads – demo charges and meltaguns here. Commit a large number of squads to Al’rahim’s platoon – you wont be disappointed.

Vet squads infiltrating with autocannon or lascannon and plasma rifles are good too.

I've listened to everyone and dumped all the mortars, Master of Ordnance, and some of the other heavy weapon squads.

I've added Creed, Al'Rahem, and two 30 man power fist commissar blobs that can come in the sides using the special character rules. Doing this dropped seven kill points as well, 19 instead of 26.

Now there's 184 models: 9 meltas, 15 lascannons, 9 Autocannons, 8 grenade launchers, 9 flamers, 1 pw, 1pf, and 107 assorted flashlights. I thinks that's a 111 man gunline with 73 outflankers.

Company Command Squad with Creed 230
2 grenade launchers, vox, Regimental Banner, Astropath and Officer of the Fleet

1rst Platoon Command Squad;lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox; with Al'Rahem 120
3 Infantry Squads with 3 meltas and 1 vox , Commissar with Power Weapon (outflanking blob 1) 230
1 Special Weapons Squad with 3 meltas 65 (outflanking as part of Al's platoon)

2cd Platoon Commander: lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox 50
3 Infantry Squads with 3 meltas and 1vox , Commissar with Power Fist (outflanking blob 2, Creed's Tactical Genius unit) 235
2 Infantry Squads; each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox; 160
3 Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads 315

3rd Platoon Commander: lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox 50
4 Infantry Squads; each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox; 320
3 Autocannon Heavy Weapon Squads 225

Baconfat

Now that is an ugly ugly list!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can you find room for Sly Marbo?

This should probably do well. I'd note, though, that PIS commissars can't take power fists. With the points freed up by giving him a power weapon, you have the points to give your valuable, BS4 CCS something more than just 2 grenade launchers.

Let us know how this plays out.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

mercer wrote:Dude Space Marines pay 10 points for a meltagun so do Imperial Guard...Marines pay 15 points for a plasma gun so do Marines. Weapons are the same and the same points

You pay more for a Land Raider because it's armour 14 all the way round and not 14-13-10 which is a huge difference. Plus it has transport compactity, more guns and it can still fire if it moves 12".

I don't know what you're complained at about the Guard for TBH.

imo I still think weapons should cost a bit more seeing as the troops cost almost nothing.

Dude think what you've just said. Model points and weapon points are different. Troops cost almost nothing because how weak they are and not very good save. The weapon is the same cost because whether in the hands of a Space Marine or Guardsman is does the same destruction. Weapon points should not go up because troops cost nothing, troops cost nothing because they are crap and come with a crap weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baconfat wrote:I've listened to everyone and dumped all the mortars, Master of Ordnance, and some of the other heavy weapon squads.

I've added Creed, Al'Rahem, and two 30 man power fist commissar blobs that can come in the sides using the special character rules. Doing this dropped seven kill points as well, 19 instead of 26.

Now there's 184 models: 9 meltas, 15 lascannons, 9 Autocannons, 8 grenade launchers, 9 flamers, 1 pw, 1pf, and 107 assorted flashlights. I thinks that's a 111 man gunline with 73 outflankers.

Company Command Squad with Creed 230
2 grenade launchers, vox, Regimental Banner, Astropath and Officer of the Fleet

1rst Platoon Command Squad;lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox; with Al'Rahem 120
3 Infantry Squads with 3 meltas and 1 vox , Commissar with Power Weapon (outflanking blob 1) 230
1 Special Weapons Squad with 3 meltas 65 (outflanking as part of Al's platoon)

2cd Platoon Commander: lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox 50
3 Infantry Squads with 3 meltas and 1vox , Commissar with Power Fist (outflanking blob 2, Creed's Tactical Genius unit) 235
2 Infantry Squads; each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox; 160
3 Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads 315

3rd Platoon Commander: lp/ccw, 3 flamers, vox 50
4 Infantry Squads; each with lascannon, grenade launcher, and vox; 320
3 Autocannon Heavy Weapon Squads 225

Baconfat

Your new list is looking a lot lot better than the first. I'm glad you're a bright spark and paying attention as others you may as well just talk to the wall lol.

Creed squad still doesn't need the standard; it's not going into combat.

Don't take flamers on foot; that's a terribad idea. A 9" template just isn't going to make it. Melta isn't too bad because even at 12" away it's S8 AP1 so can do decent damage. Switch flamers on PCS for meltas, or even plasma.

Why lascannon and grenade launcher? S9 lascannon S6 grenade launcher don't go. Ditch either one.

Rest is ok.

Disagree with Mercer about the flamers, as said above I think they're very useful for discouraging assaults (assuming your blob squad is always in front of and covering its PCS, as it should be). Meltaguns are better in the blob squads, where your opponent can't just wipe them out with shooting (cause a cover save only takes you so far) and sit tight in his vehicles.

I do agree that lascannon/plasma, autocannon/plasma, and autocannon/GL all make more sense than lascannon/GL. Really different targets there.

J, if a assault unit is going to assault it's going to make sure it can assault. It's not going to stop 15" away.

I agree that flamers in foot infantry are rarely ever fired. That said, occasionally they are (when you outflank them, or catch them after a sweeping advance, or when your opponent was 7" away and couldn't charge the previous turn), which makes taking a few of them here and there worth it, given their bargain price.

Ailaros,

Thanks for catching the Power Fist commissar thing. I mixed up the two pages, with PCS and Infantry.

I think I'm going to dump more voxes to give the blob Sgts and Creed's squad better weapons. Then the list is done till at least after it sees combat. I'll wait until I see how bad all the flamers perform, before I kick more favorite models off the team.

Instead of only six models to paint I'm back to 15ish, so a battle won't happen this weekend. I don't want to show up with almost all of the models painted and tomorrow I'm going to the Metro Seattle Gamer's "Summer Skirmish" for some Warhammer Ancients.

Despite having a better army, I am sad that heavy weapon squads aren't that good. I could have painted several armies instead of 118 Heavy Weapons teams, and that's not counting all my Apocalypse only thudd guns, rapiers, tarantulas, etc...

I'll let you all know how it goes with a little AAR when it does happen.

Baconfat