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Im using creed and kell in my ig army and therefore im going to be using alot of orders so could you tell me which orders you like and how best to use them.

Bring It Down early in the game, destroy the opponents transports/mobility or Nid Monstrous Creatures. Sometimes Fire on my Target to weaken their cover save. And then First Rank, Second Rank when the get close and you want to pour it on. With Creed, you also have Glory of Cadia, makes a blob squad very effective on the charge.

Umm... they're pretty much self-explanatory. How you use them should be rather obvious.

As for which ones that are liked, it depends highly on your army list and strategy, and the same of your opponents. That's really the benefit of orders - you can use whichever one makes most sense in any given place at any give time.

Personally, I find myself using "go go go" about 80% of the time. The rest is "bring it down!" on 3x meltagun squads. Other than that, I'd used "incoming" like 3 times and "fire on my target" exactly once.

When ordering fire on units in the open, "bring it down" is obviously the best, and when firing on covered targets with units that have BS3, "bring it down" and "fire on my target" produce exactly the same result.

But if you're firing on a unit in cover with BS4 models, you'll get better results from "fire on my target." It mostly only comes up when you have disembarked vets who are about to melta something.

Also another subtle difference is that "bring it down" can only be used on vehicles and monstrous creatures. So if you want to shoot your plasma at those power-armored guys in the trees or turbo-boosting bikes, you use "fire on my target."

FRFSRF always produces better results with lasguns than either "bring it down" or "fire on my target" in the 12-24" range band, because you multiply the number of raw shots by 2, which will always net more wounds. At ranges of 12" or less, "bring it down" produces the same result as FRFSRF. So depending on whether you also have special/heavy weapons in your lasgun unit, and whether or not you want to save your company commander's orders for other units (because platoon commanders can also give FRFSRF) you can choose whichever is better.

Also one more subtle thing about orders that you might not notice until you use them is that they happen at the beginning of the shooting phase, before all other shooting. So you generally want to build your army with things that are designed to take orders at the start of shooting--like the transport-busting guns--rather than trying to give orders to things that tend to shoot later in the shooting phase-like anti-infantry fire. You don't want to be in the position of only having heavy bolter squads to give orders to at the start of shooting when your only available targets are rhinos.

I play creed once in a while when im using almost using no tanks. Make sure you can take advantage of using every order every turn. I.E. if you have extra orders at the end of a round its almost a waste.

Flavius Infernus wrote: because you multiply the number of raw shots by 2, which will always net more wounds.

Quick correction: you increase the number of raw shots by 1, not by 2x.

In any case, the only time you're going to be using this order is with immoble, non-power-blob squads. As, with one glaring exception, there is no use for these kinds of squads, you shouldn't necessarily expect to use this order all that often.

eyebone wrote:I play creed once in a while when im using almost using no tanks. Make sure you can take advantage of using every order every turn. I.E. if you have extra orders at the end of a round its almost a waste.

Right, which is why Creed's extra order ability isn't actually that useful. I find I often have a problem issuing TWO useful orders from my CCS in most game turns. The extra is just going to be wasted most of the time.

Really, you use creed for outflanking a 3x squad of heavy flamer demolishers, or whatever.

I often agree with things you write, Ailaros, but obviously our experience of gameplay is very different.

I use FRFSRF about once per game, sometimes also a second time, with a 30-man power blob. If some terminators or another good target steps to within 24" of them, it seems to me like a no-brainer to take 60 shots at them, even if they are only str3. If some terminators or another good target steps within 18", then it makes sense to me to take the 90 shots. Even if they'll be in charge range the following turn, I'll forgo the assault for a FRFSRF order. 3 shots per infantryman are better than 2 HtH attacks each on the charge by whatever's left of them after higher-initiative models thin them out. The way I play, the major function of a power blob besides acting as bubblewrap is to jockey for a FRFSRF firing position, and then get charged.

Flavius Infernus wrote: FRFSRF always produces better results with lasguns than either "bring it down" or "fire on my target" in the 12-24" range band, because you multiply the number of raw shots by 2, which will always net more wounds.

Emphasis added.

In the 12-24" range band, a lasgun gets 1 shot. Multiply 1 by 2, and you get 2.

I totally agree, Flavius. I don't TRY and get my power-blobs into close combat against most armies, they get into close combat because it's better for the enemy to charge them than it is to take FRFSRF at close range from a 30 man blob. The fact that there are 4 power weapons in there means that CC isn't that safe either.

It's either:

1.) Take an objective nearby, and FRFSRF until the squad that is sent to take it from you gets there. PWs in the squad mean that you stand a much better chance of holding instead of contesting the objective at the end of the gamer.

2.) Move!Move!Move! for a turn or two to get in a position to attack a further away objective. At that point, depending on time left in the game and the abilities of an enemy unit guarding the objective, either FRFSRF the bunch to oblivion, or assault and finish the job. Most of the time in this case, it's worth assaulting because the unit will have taken some damage getting to a far objective, and doesn't have the lasgun weight it did in the beginning. It generally does have its original power weapons, however.

don took exactly what i was gunna suggest...

Flavius Infernus wrote:Even if they'll be in charge range the following turn, I'll forgo the assault for a FRFSRF order.

This only makes sense for a non-power blob shooting heavy weapons. This is the "glaring exception" I referred to earlier. If you're running a power blob there's no excuse for not running, in order to get closer, or charging I guess there's this very narrow band when you're attacking a unit that you KNOW is going to try to charge your blob when they start out between 12" and 18" away. That's so rare, though, and it impedes your forward momentum.

Biophysical wrote: I don't TRY and get my power-blobs into close combat against most armies,

Then you're not playing them right. Power blobs are assault units. Assault units assault.

Biophysical wrote:1.) Take an objective nearby, and FRFSRF until the squad that is sent to take it from you gets there. PWs in the squad mean that you stand a much better chance of holding instead of contesting the objective at the end of the gamer.

Once you're already on the objective, I guess I can see shooting lasguns if you're deathly afraid of leaving the objective (like you're on turn 5 or something), but odds are, your opponent isn't going to try and clear you off with a short-ranged firefight, so you're not going to get many shots in with them anyways.

If the whole point is to just camp an objective right away, then there isn't so much the need for power weapons, as it's a matter of time, not damage.

Biophysical wrote:2.) Move!Move!Move! for a turn or two to get in a position to attack a further away objective. At that point, depending on time left in the game and the abilities of an enemy unit guarding the objective, either FRFSRF the bunch to oblivion, or assault and finish the job. Most of the time in this case, it's worth assaulting because the unit will have taken some damage getting to a far objective, and doesn't have the lasgun weight it did in the beginning. It generally does have its original power weapons, however.

Exactly. A power blob will take an objective from an opponent MUCH better in assault than they will with shooting lasguns, even with the orders.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Even if they'll be in charge range the following turn, I'll forgo the assault for a FRFSRF order.

This only makes sense for a non-power blob shooting heavy weapons. This is the "glaring exception" I referred to earlier. If you're running a power blob there's no excuse for not running, in order to get closer, or charging I guess there's this very narrow band when you're attacking a unit that you KNOW is going to try to charge your blob when they start out between 12" and 18" away. That's so rare, though, and it impedes your forward momentum.

What forward momentum? I would only need forward momentum if I were moving forward.

You do recognize, right Ailaros, that there's another way to play guard besides yours? As I understand from your posts, you move everything forward to get into range for short range guns like plasma and melta.

The other way to play hybrid guard is to stand off at range in the early game and cripple the opponent's mobility with long-range weapons, then advance to hold objectives in the end game. Or, if the opponent is assault-oriented, stand off and break up the assault in the early game with long range firepower, then use focused fire and the blob to deal with the assault units piecemeal as they come in.

So in the second way of playing guard, when your blob isn't necessarily always moving forward, it would often be better rapid-fire a weapon than to either run or try to assault. The math is pretty straightforward:

FRFSRF gets each trooper 2 or 3 attacks that hit on 4s and are str3, and they take no casualties in return. If you're shooting at something far enough away that you're only getting 2 shots, there's a chance you'll get another 3 shots in the following turn, still without taking any HtH casualties.

Charging into assault, gets each trooper 2 attacks that hit on 4s and are str3, but they have to eat a round of casualties first against most opponents, who will have higher initiative, so the overall number of attacks is decreased. Sure you get an extra 3 or 4 power weapon attacks, but by assaulting instead of rapid-firing, you missed out on an extra free attack per trooper (so like 20 or 30 attacks) plus the 10-20 attacks from the guys who died before they got to go at initiative 3.

To say that a power blob is an assault unit and should therefore always be trying to be assaulting--and anybody who doesn't do that is doing it wrong--doesn't seem to me to take into account all the different things that a power blob might be used to win a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, I'm curious: How does your army deal with vehicle-mounted flamer spam or immolator spam?

Flavius Infernus wrote:So in the second way of playing guard, when your blob isn't necessarily always moving forward, it would often be better rapid-fire a weapon than to either run or try to assault. The math is pretty straightforward:

Flavius Infernus wrote:To say that a power blob is an assault unit and should therefore always be trying to be assaulting--and anybody who doesn't do that is doing it wrong--doesn't seem to me to take into account all the different things that a power blob might be used to win a game.

Your opponent is 12". You have a 30 dude power blob squad with 3 flamers and 3 autocannons.

FRFSRF against a 10-man tac squad kills around 6. Charging in with the blob loses you 2, and then you turn around and kill 6

The next turn, the 4 marines fire off some bolt pistols and charge in and kill off 7, with 2 remaining. The charging blob loses 1.

Both of them finish off the marines at the same time, but with FRFSRF you lose more guys and you lose the ability to move 18" somewhere. The only time that you wouldn't want to charge is if you're holding an objective late game, or if you're taking the squad to hold objective and that's all (in which case, why the power blob?)

Plus, the above math made some key assumptions that aren't always true. For example, if you have 2 tac squads next to each other, in the case of FRFSRF, you actually LOSE the close-range firefight as your blob is blown apart by bolter fire. If you would have charged, then you would have been safe from shooting.Also, it's assuming that your opponent doesnt' decide to use fast units to avoid taking undue damage before they get into your stuff, or that you absolutely always have a 5-squishy-man officer squad nearby.

In circumstances where you want to park your butt and have perfect butt-parking circumstances, then go ahead and FRFSRF (this was the exception I was talking about). Otherwise, use the squad that you took the close combat weapons and assault weapons for the reason you took those weapons: assault.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Incidentally, I'm curious: How does your army deal with vehicle-mounted flamer spam or immolator spam?

manticores, rerollable meltaguns, rerollable meltabombs, rerollable eviscerator attacks, why?

I'll pass on arguing further about blob assaults.

From the battle reports on your Foleran 1st site, it looks like your infantry horde (+ some artillery) did really well at games of 1000 points and less in 4th edition, but struggles at 1850, especially versus mech armies in 5th. Would you consider the possibility that, because armies at higher point levels can afford more infantry-slaughtering units, that imperial guard infantry armies might not scale well to games above 1500 points?

That's why I bring up immolators as an example. At 1850 it's fairly easy to fit 10+ immolators (if you have the models) that could probably toast any of the infantry armies you have listed in a couple of turns. Heck, I have 11 hull-mounted heavy flamers in my IG army at 1500.

A comparison of a blob to tac marines is a little bland, since they are hardly on the list of being exceptionally dangerous to a guard blob squad. A unit of BA Assault Troops or Space Wolf Grey Hunters would probably be a better comparison.

Yeah, that's why I decided to give up on the shooting vs. assaulting debate. Clearly we can both think of cases in which one or the other action/order is better, and the fact that it's possible for me to do something stupid like stand in the open in front of rapid-firing boltguns doesn't mean assaulting is always better. So I think my point that always moving forward/assaulting isn't always best carries.

I play with lots of infantry, and 1000+ I've got at least two HWS's, so I'm not usually 'wasting' orders unless its the end game and everyone is dead. Many, including myself, think of orders as a bonus anyways, so one tip would be to be careful during deployment that you don't choose order range over otherwise advantageous positions when placing your units.

Then again, it's not very hard to do anyways; at 1500 pts I have little trouble placing a couplefew HWS's with a model within 6" of a Lord Commissar hidden in a CCS, often with everyone in some kind of cover. Ld10 for orders is pretty nice, though he's really there for the morale/pinning rolls on Ld7 models with big guns that need to be firing, not running.

I find that the CCS orders complement HWS's, while the PCS orders complement PIS's. A HWS obviously doesn't need MMM (often) or FRFSRF (ever), while BiD and FomT make the HWS's more reliable at their job. For this reason I keep my CCS with my HWS's (as flavius says, you want big hitters ready at the start of the shooting phase), and the PCS with the regulars.

I play with 2 platoons, so furf'n'surf gets used alot in my battles. I arm my PIS squads with HB/GL to dedicate them to light infantry (unless I bring a power blob), so it is helpful fo sho as I'm already trying to maximize my lasguns. My PCS squads usually have chimeras, and if they stay with them and use MMM they can have a squad or a blob basically keep up with them. Great for an 'assault' platoon.

I haven't made much use of I! to be honest, although I hope to get better at spotting good uses of it. I also haven't made much use of GBitF, for that matter - with a Lord Commissar and Regimental Standard, things near my CCS must be destroyed to be silenced.

I tried Creed for the first time in a 2000pt game the other day, and I'm thinking he's coming along for anything 2000+ (for now at least). He's just too helpful for my army to leave at home, doubling not only the orders (I've got 5-6 HWS at 2000) but the range (helps to take advantage of terrain when deploying). GoC makes the bubblewrap tougher and Tactical Genius adds a little initiative to the list. Very helpful, but makes the CCS a little pricey, so even at 2000 I'm not sure he's worth it.

Don't forget that chimeras extend the order range while protecting your squishy command squads.

One other thing - don't forget to use Orders! It took my addled brain awhile to remember them consistently...

I really don't know about you guys, but my static heavy weapons loaded gunline has yet to fail to perform. I bring Creed on anything larger than 1500, just because he has a 24" command radius and 4 orders per turn.

I usually bomb out all opposing transports vehicles/tanks using bring it down early in the game and then simply let them come close enough to do die from FRFSRF. Most armies has to move forward since it's the only way of getting at the tanks pounding away large blasts across the entire board.

In the end I tend to use Go, go, go and simply ignore the heavy weapons just to grab some objectives or Fire at my target to kill off termies in cover using lascannons. Don't know if it's the best thing, but it sure is fun to see the opponents face when he realizes that his precious terminator has to reroll his only (4+) defence.

Unless you start debating that a 5+ inv save is better than a rerolled 4+. Don't actually know what the rules says about that. It only says a model takes his best save, which should be the cover save...

Hmmm... Sorry. Just rambling.

A 5+ save succeeds about 33% of the time, while a 4+ rerolled only succeeds 25% of the time. So the invulnerable is technically better.

The rulebook only says that a model has to use the "best available save."