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Hi, Everybody,

Quick Discussion Point. In the context of a 1,500 List, tooled for All-Corners and Versatility, which is better: the Line Breaker Squadron of 3 Vindicators, or the Thunderfire Battery of 3 Thunderfire Cannons? Both have their Pros and Cons, but I'm leaning towards the TF Battery, as for 300 Points you're packing 12 Small Blast Templates with options for Denying Cover, or Slowing Movement, not to mention 3 SH TMs!

Over to you. Which, and why?

Why spam?
Why not a mix?
What else is in the list?
Personally, none of them at 1500.

Depends on what kind of army you are using.

If you are gun line(probably from broken down tac sqauds w/ heavy weapons), TFC's can slow down the enemy w/ Difficult Terrain Rolls (Subterranean Rounds on a squad of 30 Jet Packed DC is rather mean). They also have the advantage of boosting up to 3 ruins in your starting deployment zone to 3+ Cover save. The con's are their low mobility and survivability (remember any glancing or penning will kill a TFC and there is only Model apart from the gun so a single unsaved wound will destroy the unit in it's entirety.

The Vindi's are much better for a mechanized army. They will be able to move along w/ your Rhinos/Razorbacks whilst dropping 3 S10 Pie plates that can kill infantry OR Vehicles (Even the mighty land raider will fall quite easily when you need a 4+ on of of two dice). Their surviability is greatly enhanced as concentrated fire is often needed to get even one pen on a AV 13 Vehicle.

Perhaps the Line Breaker, then. I'm planning on having some Rhinos and Razorbacks working along with them, so I suppose it's quite a MEQ Army. Thanks for your help; I can see the value of those 3 S10 Pies.

Plus building thunderfire cannons is supposed to be a pain.

Also very true. I was actually looking at some Forgeworld Imperial Mortars as Stand-ins, but Vindis would look much more impressive.

@1500pts, 3x thunderfire might be a bit excessive. I use two in my biker army, and they are awesome, but I've very rarely thought "I need another one of these guys".

Vindicators are more of a psycological weapon, they won't kill too much because of several factors. I've run 3x vindicator before, and they rarely killed anything. They did take the heat off my other units though. I think a mix would work better than take 3x any choice.

Id go with the Line Breakers - they can effect alot more than the TF Cannon can.

But they are much worse against the things that the thunderfire rocks against.

Thunderfire is very good against bikes and jump troops. It is totally awesome against GEQ, and it it good at cleaning up small squads of MEQ's. The Vindicator is bad or at best decent against most of that stuff.

The vindicator is better against tanks, but it's real value is in armour saturation and taking fire from your more important units.

Popsicle
the line breaker squadron is imo the better buy. they're more threatening and more resilient than the thunderfire guys. the range is less but w/e you cant have everything.
AF

Heh, I'd suggest the Line Breaker, but only because if you magnatize it you can have 3 Vindi/Pred/WW/Rhino/Razors...

pssh, LINE BREAKER! people, people, have you ever faught against/ used a vidicator? there the best! they level in close quarters...

Your questions lacks the context to give a proper answer. What other units do you generally run? I think 3 of either at 1500 is excessive.

^My thoughts exactly...

@nirvana69:
Then you are more blessed than some. I'm not too impressed...esp. with so much cover saving/scattering/spreading out/meching up that is going around.

Personally I love TFC, but think 3 would be a bad idea. Some units become more effective when they are spammed, and some units see diminishing returns and become less effective when spammed.

TFC have diminishing returns. The first one is often amazingly effective, the 2nd one less effective than the 1st, and the 3rd is just redundant.

nirvana69 wrote:pssh, LINE BREAKER! people, people, have you ever faught against/ used a vidicator? there the best! they level in close quarters...

I've had a lone Vindicator in my army since 5th Edition came out. Its done already but never wowed me enough that I'm currently considering replacements for it. Three Vindicators doesn't do alot for me either. In fact, against most armies its a bad idea as you have to close within special weapon and assault range to use their shooting consisently. While moving 6" a turn to fire, alot of units will very quickly close the gap to the point the Vindicator can no longer escape.

Back on topic though...I'd recommend a mix. I've been getting excellent results from running a single Thunderfire with a Vindicator and a Predator in support. I've find that the Vindicator helps level high AV deep strikers/terminators caught in LR wreckage while the Thunderfire provides ranged punch against GEQs, bikes, jump packers and MEQs caught in transport wreckage. The Predator acts as a strong safety, with its autocannon/lascannon mix capable of shredding transports and still mopping up MEQ/TEQ units that have been reduced in size by the other two when necessary.

OP, what else is in your army?

It's a list that I'm writing, and could be changed at any moment, so I'll give you the Basics of what I'm looking at right now.

Captain and Command Squad in Razorback
Sternguard Squad (7)
Librarian with The Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom (Joined)
Tactical Squad (10)
Scout Squad (5)
Assault Squad (10) in Rhino or Drop Pod

And then either the Vindis or the Thunderfires. Thanks for everybody's comments, I'll keep considering. I'm particularly interested by the below Post, though.

PanzerLeader wrote:Back on topic though...I'd recommend a mix. I've been getting excellent results from running a single Thunderfire with a Vindicator and a Predator in support. I've find that the Vindicator helps level high AV deep strikers/terminators caught in LR wreckage while the Thunderfire provides ranged punch against GEQs, bikes, jump packers and MEQs caught in transport wreckage. The Predator acts as a strong safety, with its autocannon/lascannon mix capable of shredding transports and still mopping up MEQ/TEQ units that have been reduced in size by the other two when necessary.

This sounds tempting. Very much so. Comments?

I think many people suggested getting a mix.
The AC/LC with the TFC is a decent One-Two Punch of a combo.

So, leave the Vindicator for now? The Predator and Cannon do seem, as you said, a potent combo. I doubt I'll need much more in the way of Heavy Support, but then again, what about Anti-Tank? Other than the Lascannon there, will Meltaguns, and perhaps a MM Attack Bike or Land Speeder, be enough?

If I was going to do a similar idea to what you have posted, this is where I would start playtesting:

HQ Captain Relic blade, hellfire 140
HQ Command Squad x5 Apoth, 4x Plasma gun 175
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Elites Sternguard x6 2x Combimelta 160
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Elites Sternguard x6 2x Combimelta 160
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Troops Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon, plasma gun 190
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35

Troops Scouts x10 Heavy bolter, snipers, camo 180

Heavy Thunderfire cannon 100

Heavy Predator Ac/las 120

Heavy Predator Ac/las 120

1500

Its all very shooty, no real assault element. But you should have the shooting power to remove things from objectives. The razorback-spamish is kept cheap to make them low on target priority.

I personally would go with the vindicators. For aesthetic reasons. I don't like the thunderfire models so that rules them out for me. Plus I already have the vindis.

Dracos wrote:If I was going to do a similar idea to what you have posted, this is where I would start playtesting:

HQ Captain Relic blade, hellfire 140
HQ Command Squad x5 Apoth, 4x Plasma gun 175
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Elites Sternguard x6 2x Combimelta 160
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Elites Sternguard x6 2x Combimelta 160
Dedicated Transport Razorback 40

Troops Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon, plasma gun 190
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35

Troops Scouts x10 Heavy bolter, snipers, camo 180

Heavy Thunderfire cannon 100

Heavy Predator Ac/las 120

Heavy Predator Ac/las 120

1500

Its all very shooty, no real assault element. But you should have the shooting power to remove things from objectives. The razorback-spamish is kept cheap to make them low on target priority.

On the List, there are a few Questions I have, without wanting to turn this into an Army Lists-Section Topic.

1. With those Sternguard, which really suit me both Miniature- and Gameplay-wise, wouldn't you be better finding Points for fielding Pedro Kantor instead of the Captain? Also, as he's more of an Assault Monster - which will be the exception to the rule with this list - the Command Squad would probably be better off with the Classic Banner and Champion Combo. The remaining Veterans would probably be given Flamers, to soften up Hordes before Assaulting, as we don't want Kantor to drown in a Green Tide!

2. I'm not sure about having the Tactical Squad in a Rhino. If I'm going to pay the Points for a Lascannon in the Squad, I'd much rather have them Combat-Squadded, with the Plasma Gun and Sergeant in a Razorback, and the Lascannon staying static, to allow it to Fire. Much of the time, that won't be possible with the Rhino.

3. Looking at the Load-Out, I think I'd rather have 2 Tactical Squads than 1 and 1 Scout Squad. The Average Damage that those Snipers will deal isn't fantastic, and I could have a Free Missile Launcher and Flamer to boot with the Tactical Squad. But that's just me nit-picking.

4. (Most Consequential in Relation to Discussion) I think, perhaps, a Vindicator instead of the second Predator would make more sense? Simply because it succeeds where the Thunderfire fails, and adds more Variety and Options to my Gameplay.

1. Pedro really is not that good unless you are doing pure sternguard spam. Making them scoring is good, but losing combat tactics for stubborn ruins the whole deal. Flamers before assaulting is also iffy. If you kill enough of a horde with flamers, odds are good you opponent will kill the models closest to you inorder to prevent you charging. The four plasma guns is the one element of this force that will ruin heavy sqauds like terminators.

2. You can still combat sqaud them just fine. Just because the rhino has a capacity of 10 dosn't you have always fill it up. This also lets the plasma gun run around killing stuff out of the hatch.

Edit: One more negative for Pedro, and a big one, he is a chapter master. He gives you honour guards, not command squads.

Popsicle wrote:On the List, there are a few Questions I have, without wanting to turn this into an Army Lists-Section Topic.

1. With those Sternguard, which really suit me both Miniature- and Gameplay-wise, wouldn't you be better finding Points for fielding Pedro Kantor instead of the Captain? Also, as he's more of an Assault Monster - which will be the exception to the rule with this list - the Command Squad would probably be better off with the Classic Banner and Champion Combo. The remaining Veterans would probably be given Flamers, to soften up Hordes before Assaulting, as we don't want Kantor to drown in a Green Tide!

As has been pointed out, Kantor is a chapter master, not captain. Command squads are not a good choice for CC, so building it for CC seems dubious. If you want a CC unit just go with assault terminators. You really need to take advantage of the 2 things Command squads have going for them over any other marine unit: ability to spam special weapons, and the apothecary. That is why the plasma gun squads are my clear favorite build.

Popsicle wrote:2. I'm not sure about having the Tactical Squad in a Rhino. If I'm going to pay the Points for a Lascannon in the Squad, I'd much rather have them Combat-Squadded, with the Plasma Gun and Sergeant in a Razorback, and the Lascannon staying static, to allow it to Fire. Much of the time, that won't be possible with the Rhino.

That squad is excellent for camping mid-field objectives. Drive up as close as you can get turn 1 with smoke, then sit there a couple turns shooting plasma gun and lascannon at light vehicles or heavy infantry. You might be surprised at how effective this squad can be. You can always choose to combat squad if you feel its better for that particular scenario anyways. One thing I have learned about tactical squads is that you can't be afraid to move and forego firing their heavy. They get their heavy weapons for cheap for a reason: they are not meant to be firing them every turn every game. Tactical squads need to be more flexible they the static combat squads allow for.

Popsicle wrote:3. Looking at the Load-Out, I think I'd rather have 2 Tactical Squads than 1 and 1 Scout Squad. The Average Damage that those Snipers will deal isn't fantastic, and I could have a Free Missile Launcher and Flamer to boot with the Tactical Squad. But that's just me nit-picking.

The snipers have a better range, and are better at shooting high toughness targets. Also, they can combat squad and sit on 2 objectives. With their cover save at 3+, the techmarine can bolster their cover to 2+ which makes them very hard to move.

Popsicle wrote:4. (Most Consequential in Relation to Discussion) I think, perhaps, a Vindicator instead of the second Predator would make more sense? Simply because it succeeds where the Thunderfire fails, and adds more Variety and Options to my Gameplay.

You could try a vindicator instead of the 2nd predator, I guess I'm just not a fan of vindicators. Additionally, the predators are your best anti-vehicle squad, making them top priority for any mobile list. The only opponent against whom I would likely favor the vindicator is horde orks. Against almost any other opponent I think the 2nd predator is better.