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Hi all,

With the release of 8th Edition, I was prompted to end my lurking and join Dakka. Although I know my way around 40k, I've heard Fantasy is a whole different animal, and with the upsurge of new players in my area I thought it might be a good time to jump in. I've got my heart set on Lizardmen. I just love the look of the army, although I don't know how it functions. I've heard that Slann are great in the magic phase, but other than that I don't really know much else. My main question is: How do Lizardmen fare in 8th Edition WHFB?

I think they are great. They are a pretty diverse army with really good champions and really really good monsters.

I'd probably say "most" Liz players go with Slann simply because they are the best casters in the entire game. And that's not something to sneeze at. And they look like Buddha frogs. I also love their lore. They're the oldest (playable) race in the game, with some models having been around since the very creation of all species. That's cool. Though they're mean bastards and not very big in terms of individual personality, like Elves. They're patient thinkers.

But you can make them melee power houses with Saurus warriors and their uber heroes. You can grab zillions of skinks and go horde with their poison weapons. You can get tons of fire breathing, spike throwing, thunderstomping monsters, you can get some mega magic dudes and pray for no miscasts, or you can do some combination.

So far, I have nothing but good things to report with them. I run (rather, used to run) a magic heavy list with a Slaan, an EotG and another Skink Priest with just enough Sarus to cover my points. Now I've shifted to a heavy CC style army, with massive (in Lizardmen terms) blocks of Sarus. The addition of having an extra attack from your second rank means that spears are pretty much out of the question. Give me a T4, 3+ in CC save any day of the weak. I also have started to use Skinks with javelins instead of the blowpipes. March 12" and shoot 12" is pretty good, even if the odds of hitting aren't always in our favor.

Our magic is still good. The Engine will always wreck. And the Slaan with the extra dice per spell discipline combined with all around beefier lores makes us pretty good in magic. And some of the kit outs you can do with the Hero/Lord choices are freaking ridiculous.

They're good! I saw an empire vs. lizardmen game yesterday, and the lizardmen held their own quite well. I'll try to add more specifics later, but the above comments are right on, I think.

You dont have a 3+ in CC.. shields provide 1+ to your save and if you have a HW then you get a 6+ ward from the FRONT only and not against impact or stomp attacks

Spears are still superior because you get 24 attacks if 6 wide which kills stuff pretty well

A very conditional 6+ ward save isnt really better than more attacks to me

Kirasu wrote:You dont have a 3+ in CC.. shields provide 1+ to your save and if you have a HW then you get a 6+ ward from the FRONT only and not against impact or stomp attacks

Shield gives +1 armor save. +1 ward save. So they are 4+ armor 6+ ward. And no matter the enemy str, they'll still keep that 6+ ward (in cc).

Say a shield Sarus fights spear Saurus, the spear would have a 6+ armor save (4 str on attacker) and the shield would have a 5+ armor and 6+ ward.

There pros and cons to each, but it's not a slam dunk either way. You need a big/wide spear unit to even out those odds, but it makes it a large target for spells and templates and such. And in a battle of attrition against smaller units, the shield comes out ahead. But the shield only gives ward in CC front, so if you hit to the flank or something, it's not as great. In any case, it's a 1 point cost differential and that's about what it's worth.

All Saurus have a 4+ armour save.

Yeah, sorry. Thought spears were 2h.

@ DukeRustfield:

The Lizardmen's fluff is one of the two main reasons I like them, the second reason being the Mayan/Aztec look. Admittedly, I think the Slann models are a bit ugly, but then, there's always the Lord Kroak model.

@ Everyone:

I'm planning a 2500 point army that has many warriors (80), a unit of 19 TG, Chakax, and a Slann. Beyond that I don't really know what monsters or other units to add. I was thinking Salamanders, but I don't know whether their ranged attack counts as a breath weapon or not, and Ancient Stegadons, but I heard that they're not that good in 8th. Could I get some help regarding what units are good/useful?

Salamanders do Not count as Breath Weapons, it's in their FAQ specifically. And Yes, Salamanders are Awesome on the table, definitely one of my MVPs.

as a side note how taboo is it to use razardon models as salamanders seeing as how the sallies model looks like it was made out of playdoh?

Lizardmen was the 2nd army I started and I've been playing 10 years. I haven't seen the new rules yet so I can't help you there but I've run just about every unit in the army so can give you some of my feedback there.

I currently run a list led by a saurus lord on a carnosaur (you can see him in my gallery), a skink brave and two skink chiefs. I go with 3 blocks of spear suarus, 1 of Temple Guard and 2 units of skink skirmishers. I also have saurus cavalry, kroxigors, chameleon skinks and salamanders and honestly I don't think I've ever had a bad game with them.

That dosen't mean I've always won but lizardmen have some serious kudos going for them. As said above Slaan are THE greatest spell casters in the game, I think the only things that can come close are Lords of Change and Vampires. Sadly I've never used one but my best freind who got me into the game always has and I can attest to how good they are. If you take one chances are you'll dominate in the magic faze or at least be well protected magically. As I said challangers to your magic will be Tzeench heavy armies who can have some good offensive magic, Khorne armies who are anti magic naturally, vampires who can be pretty good but can get expensive which means your opponents army is missing out somewhere else or just dosen't make them as powerfull and Dwarfs who are highly magic resistant thanks to runes.

Old Bloods are cc monsters. I run mine with a scimitar of the sun resplendant, maiming shield, light armor and a talisman of protection on a carnosaur. This makes him a berserker kill all character of death with 7 S5 attacks and if the enemy survives those he has to survive 4 S7 attacks from his carnosaur which turns each unsaved wound into D3 wounds. And if you give him a bane head and get into cc with your chosen enemy character it doubles the amount of unsaved wounds you make.

Saurus are some of the best infantry in the game in terms of cc. They are almost a match for Warriors of Chaos who are the best and I have passed so many important insane courage tests thanks to being cold blooded which kept enemy units where they needed to be so I could take their flank instead of them running around doing damage.

Skinks are awesome to though I never take them as ranked units. I always skirmish with them as their mobility and poisoned weapons are to me their greatest asset. When a unit of skinks who are no bigger then gobbos can stand and shoot at a charging giant (and again pass their terror test due to cold blooded) and drop it because of all the poisoned wounds I get I think they are worth it. I have killed so many big things thanks to those little guys, I also use them to take out warmachines and characters. I give both units a chieftan 1 with a dragonfly of quicksilver and the other with the venom of the firefly frog both make them better at what they do naturally.

Kroxigors aren't as good as they used to be in my opinion, they used to be the ultimate chariot killers but that dosen't apply anymore with the new rulebook. Also losing the ability to charge through skink skirmishers makes me cry as that was awesome but they can still be flank protectors.

Temple Guard are a solid unit with a great leadership so chances are they aren't going to run away. Combine them with a slaan and they well set there feet and not budge for ANYONE. I once had a unit of Blood Knights charge them and not only did they take the charge with flying colors they won the combat and killed the knights. Plus the fact that they can take a magic banner worth up to 50pts and the champion can take a magic item worth up to 25pts is cool to. I give my unit the Totem of prophecy so they cause fear and my champion a sword of the hornet so he always strikes first which comes in pretty handy for an I2 model.

Cold One cavalry can get pretty expensive but I think you get what you pay for, thanks to being thick skinned they add +2 to your armour save vs +1 from normal cavalry which when combined with shields and scaly skin giving their riders a 2+ armor save. On top of that they cause fear so they can go up against some of the scarier enemies out there. I run mine with a jaguar standard which means they pursue an extra D6. Use them to charge a low leadership unit, break them in combat then catch them and wipe them out which can cause panic in nearby units as well as give you possible flanks to charge (they love fighting goblins ).

The new Stegadons are by far the craziest, toughest, hardest to kill, most heavy hitting unit in the game. Any unit being charged by a Stegadon probably isn't going to be around for very long. I don't use them at the moment but when I do I take 2 ancients with engines of the gods. This adds some more protection to my army in terms of magic and ranged attacks as well as some cc aid through portent of warding while still being a cc monster (litterally).

And the fact that you can potentially take 10 (Mazdamundi, 3 skink mounts, 4 special, 2 rare) of them is just scary and I've seen a couple people with what's called Thunderlizard lists. Despite having Terror as well as a slew of other special rules Stegadons have a psychological effect on your opponent who'll be thinking "how am I going to kill that" especially if you have more than one which is a rare reaction to find outside of HUGE horde armies.

I'm not a big fan of Terradons but I have used them from time to time and they can have their uses. Think that wizard sitting in the back sniping units is safe? just see how safe he is when a skink chief riding a terradon and armed with a blade of sotek and a bane head comes a calling. And even without the chief the Terradons poisoned javelins can do the same thing which is also usefull against warmachine crews. And if your facing someone with frenzied units use your Terradons as bait to lead his frenzied troops around the field.

I love Chameleon Skinks which is why I take them but sadly I don't think there that good. and where better in the older codex The only differance between them and normal skinks is they are harder to shoot and have a better BS then skinks at 5 points more with a 10 model max. That works out to 20 blowgun shots versus 40 from a unit of 20 skink skirmishers. While the Chameleons have better BS my skirmishers still get more hits just because of the number of shots. I use them for sniping but they rarely make up their points.

Salamanders are another of my favorite units. I can say this because my last salamander in my unit killed half a unit of slayers using spout flames and then another quarter of them in cc before he died which left the unit nice and vulnerable to a cold one charge which finished off the unit. I say they are deffinitly worth it.

I haven't used Razordons simply because I don't like having a random number of shots. Sure their shots are stronger, have better range and they have more options as far as when they can shoot but I'll stick to using a flame template which when fired from multiple salamanders with -3 to the enemies save can usually take out a good sized unit even though the template dosen't come directly from their mouth where as with razordons you probably won't have the same effect.

Now as I said I haven't read the new rule book and of course characters add a whole new level to the army but these are just some of my experiences that you may find usefull. I'm sorry it's long and probably not what you where looking for but I hope it helps none the less

I think you are mistaken, there is no slot system anymore. the only time you can take 2 engines of the gods is when you play 3k and those are stripped down engines.

As I said before I haven't seen the new rule book yet so what I said is subject to change based off of the new rules

The numbers of stuff you can take is different now, based on % of points rather than slots. Carnosaurs and Stegadons got meaner though, in that Monsters now get D6 extra Hits (not attack) that Always Strike Last, letting them put even more hurt into a unit.

@ Ironskull:
Thanks, that synopsis was very helpful, and just what I was looking for.

Gus_Papas wrote:@ DukeRustfield:

The Lizardmen's fluff is one of the two main reasons I like them, the second reason being the Mayan/Aztec look. Admittedly, I think the Slann models are a bit ugly, but then, there's always the Lord Kroak model.

I've been ossilating whether or not to jump into Lizards. I actually DON'T like the Aztec look. I mean for a race that is the oldest in the game, what's with this caveman-type ancient technology? But /runs to BRB, if you look at page 341 in the new book, the upper left banner bearer, look at that banner. They painted it almost a high-tech Aztec color scheme. Instead of hammered gold, it's like a smooth alloy. A completely different style, and one that makes a lot of sense to me. Sure, the Liz didn't need to develop much technology because they are so magic-heavy, but being around for thousands upon thousands of years and having technology/magic directly from the Old Ones, you'd think they would be long past primitive metallurgy even by accident.

Too bad I can't paint like that. I'm more 5 year old with crayons level.

I'm going to disagree with Ironskull when it comes to Skinks. I do love my Big-Block-O-Skinks, 40 Skinks including full Command, 5 Kroxigors, and a Skink Chief BSB with a magic banner of your choice. Forms up as 6 ranks 10 wide, which out numbers even the local Skaven player's Slave Hordes. The Skinks themselves don't do a whole lot, but their Poisoned Javelins help, as well as their ~20 weak melee attacks for a bit of extra contribution. Their main job is to act as a meat shield for the Krox, and ranks for Combat Resolution and Steadfast.

So far they have never lost combat, except when I was the meat in a Skaven and WoC sandwich during a 3 player game. They benefit heavily from Slann Life magic (T6 Skinks? Hell yes!) so he's nice to keep near by, or In to get the 5+/4+ Ward Save.

For the Skirmishers, I prefer Chameleons over normal Skinks if you've already filled up your required 25% Core choices. Scouts, -1 to be shot at, and best of all +1 to hit, which means they can March, shoot at Long Range, Multi-Shot, and still hit on the all important 6s. Normal Skinks have to either stand still or get within 6" of the enemy to Multi-Shot, so I prefer Javelins on non-Chameleons. I then run them in minimum sized units of 10 normal Skinks, or 5/6 Chameleons, as only the first two ranks of them get to shoot, and smaller units are more maneuverable.

I will agree I've not had good luck running Krox as units on their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Gus_Papas wrote:@ DukeRustfield:

The Lizardmen's fluff is one of the two main reasons I like them, the second reason being the Mayan/Aztec look. Admittedly, I think the Slann models are a bit ugly, but then, there's always the Lord Kroak model.

I've been ossilating whether or not to jump into Lizards. I actually DON'T like the Aztec look. I mean for a race that is the oldest in the game, what's with this caveman-type ancient technology? But /runs to BRB, if you look at page 341 in the new book, the upper left banner bearer, look at that banner. They painted it almost a high-tech Aztec color scheme. Instead of hammered gold, it's like a smooth alloy. A completely different style, and one that makes a lot of sense to me. Sure, the Liz didn't need to develop much technology because they are so magic-heavy, but being around for thousands upon thousands of years and having technology/magic directly from the Old Ones, you'd think they would be long past primitive metallurgy even by accident.

Too bad I can't paint like that. I'm more 5 year old with crayons level.

I think of it like Stargate, where all the super advanced tech tends to looks like ancient stone, and the people to use it don't really know how it works, and think of it like magic.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Gus_Papas wrote:@ DukeRustfield:

The Lizardmen's fluff is one of the two main reasons I like them, the second reason being the Mayan/Aztec look. Admittedly, I think the Slann models are a bit ugly, but then, there's always the Lord Kroak model.

I've been ossilating whether or not to jump into Lizards. I actually DON'T like the Aztec look. I mean for a race that is the oldest in the game, what's with this caveman-type ancient technology? But /runs to BRB, if you look at page 341 in the new book, the upper left banner bearer, look at that banner. They painted it almost a high-tech Aztec color scheme. Instead of hammered gold, it's like a smooth alloy. A completely different style, and one that makes a lot of sense to me. Sure, the Liz didn't need to develop much technology because they are so magic-heavy, but being around for thousands upon thousands of years and having technology/magic directly from the Old Ones, you'd think they would be long past primitive metallurgy even by accident.

Too bad I can't paint like that. I'm more 5 year old with crayons level.

you don't need advanced metallurgy if you use shards of glass in your weapons that are as strong as steel and sharp as surgical instruments.

@ Aduro: Wow I really need to get the new rule book then if there are more changes like that. It's hard to imagine Carnosaurs or Stegadons getting any MORE deadly but for some reason having D6 extra hits added onto unsaved wounds being mulitplied into D3 makes me smile

@ Gus_Papas: No problem, Lizardmen are my favorite army and always have been. They are pretty flexible and fun in how they can be fielded and besides that have AMAZING fluff I mean they are the one army that can contain units that where alive when the Old Ones still called WHFB their home (except daemons but that dosen't count because they aren't alive). And they're aztec dinosaurs......you can't get any cooler than that

Anyway glad I helped

gendoikari87 wrote:you don't need advanced metallurgy if you use shards of glass in your weapons that are as strong as steel and sharp as surgical instruments.

Well metal has a lot of uses. Their whole cities have to be kept in repair and while they might be able to do it with Kroxigors and lots of pulleys, having metal braces and using metal to cut stone is vastly more efficient.

BTW, I'm pretty down on Kroxigors in general. They are overcosted. Just compare them to like, Ogre Ironguts, Rat Ogres, Trolls. They all differ a bit in stats, but Krox are WAY more expensive. I try not to get caught trading points with my enemies at a disadvantage. Besides, they're metal models :(

The D6 extra hit, aka Thunderstomp, does not get to benefit for any other special rules. so no D3 wounds from those hits. And the big beasties did take one hit in that templates and the like that touch them now hit everything on them. One cannon ball tracing over your Stegadon for example hits every member of the crew in addition to the Stegadon, and is likely to kill them all.

Beasts got hurt by the template thing, steadfast, no longer disrupting, etc.

However, they are very good at providing combat resolution.

An Ancient Stegadon ridden by a Skink Chief with warspear inflicts 3d6 S6 hits, 6 S6 Attacks, and 4 S3 attacks. On average, that puts a little over 10 wounds on an enemy unit, and they will not get very good armour saves.

3D6+1 S6 Hits thank you very much!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got my first game in with an Oldblood on a Carnisaur. I went with the chainsaw build, aka +3 attacks sword and +1 attack shield. He under preformed a bit, but that's due in part to him getting stuck in reserves and not getting to start out on the line. Once he got to combat he chewed thru a unit of dwarf gunners, a block of dwarf warriors (with help from a well timed/placed Comet), and started to whittle thru a second block of dwarf warriors. One problem he had was the opponent would just challenge with his Champion, so he wasn't actually able to kill much, but would win combat. I think the +1 attack shield could be better replaced with something else as well.

All in all he was fun to use, but I'm not sure he's worth replacing a Slann with.