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Situation is when a character or champion dies before it gets to attack.

So, when a champion dies, it says "replace it with a rank and file." I presume this happens immediately, so that rank and file model can attack.

However, when a character dies, I can't find anything that says they get replaced. So there'd be no stepping up and that space would not get to attack.

But, under a challenge, it says when you refuse a challenge, replace the model with a rank and file, "as if he'd been slain." Presumably this means that RnF model would get to attack. But why say, as if he'd been slain? If he'd been slain, the RnF would not get to attack right?

Last, if the character being retired is a larger base size, I presume you'd only pull up one model because RaW that's all it says. But then you have a gap?

I'm guessing that this should be filed under "What do I do with my rank and file unit when a character leaves the unit?"

Killjoy00 wrote:Situation is when a character or champion dies before it gets to attack.

So, when a champion dies, it says "replace it with a rank and file." I presume this happens immediately, so that rank and file model can attack.

However, when a character dies, I can't find anything that says they get replaced. So there'd be no stepping up and that space would not get to attack.

But, under a challenge, it says when you refuse a challenge, replace the model with a rank and file, "as if he'd been slain." Presumably this means that RnF model would get to attack. But why say, as if he'd been slain? If he'd been slain, the RnF would not get to attack right?

Last, if the character being retired is a larger base size, I presume you'd only pull up one model because RaW that's all it says. But then you have a gap?

I would think the normal rank and file "step up" as normal, simply because if they don't, you now have an illegal formation. I can't find anything besides the illegal formation idea to support it, however.

As to the different base size, this seems unlikely to happen. Characters with a non conforming footprint(20mm vs 25x50 for example) have to hang out on the side of the unit now, so it shouldn't be an issue (pg 98 When Footprints Collide). Since he isn't allowed "inside" the unit, you just wouldn't move him and would assume they are in B2B (pg 102, Fighting a Challenge) unless it was to the other side of the formation, which still shouldn't affect anything. If the footprints conform (e.g. 25 vs 25x50), if the Hero dies/moves, you keep the previous formation and move two models forward.

We had been playing that if a character dies, the rank and file won't step up until the end of combat. Otherwise you get weird results because of different I values. Ie, a character attacks, then gets attacked and dies, all before RnF I value. If the RnF stepped up, he would get an attack now?

I don't think there's anything in the rules to support that.

Re: the different base size, it can easily happen. The example we were dealing with was Slann. As Slann are now challengeable - when he retires from the challenge, would you replace him with one temple guard or two?

Killjoy00 wrote:If the RnF stepped up, he would get an attack now?

Thats how I thought it worked.

Killjoy00 wrote:We had been playing that if a character dies, the rank and file won't step up until the end of combat. Otherwise you get weird results because of different I values. Ie, a character attacks, then gets attacked and dies, all before RnF I value. If the RnF stepped up, he would get an attack now?

I don't think there's anything in the rules to support that.

Re: the different base size, it can easily happen. The example we were dealing with was Slann. As Slann are now challengeable - when he retires from the challenge, would you replace him with one temple guard or two?

The way combat now works, is when the Initiative order comes up, you check to see who is in B2B. If they are, they attack. So yes, the Rank and File would attack. It is the same deal with a split profile model. If he is killed after he has attacked but before the mount has had a chance, they step up and when the mounts can attack, the "new" one does.

As to the Slaan, his footprint matches up, so there shouldn't be a gap (unless GW f'd up and made the Slaan a 40x40mm ). Once he is removed, you refill his place with 4 Saurus/Temple Guard to keep a legal formation. There is nothing in the challenge/character rules that allow you to break the formation rules when it comes to the death/movement/challenege of the character.

Move the Slaan to the back rank when he refuses, fill the footprint with Temple Guard (4 if available).

Where in the rules do you see that a character (not champion) would be replaced by a RnF immediately upon death?

Where in the rules do you see that a Slann would be replaced by 4 Temple Guard when he refuses a challenge? The rule specifically says, "[a]nother model will step up and fight in his place." (pg. 102)

The part of the rules I am going from is the Forming Units rule pg 5.

The ONLY thing I have been saying is you must keep a legal formation. Leaving gaps, only moving one guy up, etc all break this fundamental rule.

From my first response:

Davall wrote:"I would think the normal rank and file "step up" as normal, simply because if they don't, you now have an illegal formation. I can't find anything besides the illegal formation idea to support it, however.

Don't read more into what I posted

Not trying to, just trying to find out the answer here. I legitimately don't know.

But I feel like some people have been playing step up a little differently from how I understand it.

From what I see - there is no "step up" rule. The rule is on page 51, that you take casualties from the back. This would prevent a champion from being replaced except I find a specific reference that champions can be replaced by a RnF and I can't find a similar rule for characters. Relying on pg 5 seems a little weak - why would they make the explicit rule for champions? And if you immediately would step up with 4 temple guard, why does it say model?

Furthermore, if characters are replaced you could get a weird situation like this:

Tomb King with ASF flail hits and kills a few marauders. Marauders trike back and kill him. Now a tomb guard gets to step up for the TK and strike as well because TG initiative hasn't happened yet??

This situation can't happen with champions, which are given the explicit allowance to step up, since they are all same init value.

Unless your champion has a higher init, i think some of the skaven 'runner champs do.

Nothing gives you permission to break the legal formations early on, so you must maintain a legal formation. IF this involves pulling models forwards I dont see a particular isue with this..remember combat is MEANT to be more "dynamic" feeling that it used to be, and is certainly aimed at "wysiwyg" (i.e. rank bonus calculated at the end, etc)

Deathrunner has same I as Gutter runner and Nightleader has same I as Night runners.

Nos - you don't think the language on pg. 102 grants such permission?

Killjoy00 wrote:Not trying to, just trying to find out the answer here. I legitimately don't know.

But I feel like some people have been playing step up a little differently from how I understand it.

From what I see - there is no "step up" rule. The rule is on page 51, that you take casualties from the back. This would prevent a champion from being replaced except I find a specific reference that champions can be replaced by a RnF and I can't find a similar rule for characters. Relying on pg 5 seems a little weak - why would they make the explicit rule for champions? And if you immediately would step up with 4 temple guard, why does it say model?

Furthermore, if characters are replaced you could get a weird situation like this:

Tomb King with ASF flail hits and kills a few marauders. Marauders trike back and kill him. Now a tomb guard gets to step up for the TK and strike as well because TG initiative hasn't happened yet??

This situation can't happen with champions, which are given the explicit allowance to step up, since they are all same init value.

Because GW are not good technical writers?

As to relying on page 5, it is a fundamental rule. Unless something gives you permission to break it, then you can't. You must endeavor to keep a legal formation. Not moving models forward makes it illegal.

For your example with the Tomb King, that is exactly how it happens. The combat rules specifically state when you are in B2B, and it is your initiative order, you can strike. With the exception of a challenge (where that model can't be attacked while having been in a challenge that round by a model other than the other challenge participant) this is how it works. There isn't anything about model position striking, it is just the models. pg 48 Who Can Strike?

No, because it does not specifically say you can break the formation rules.

It is not more specific therefore th ebasic rules still apply.

Specifically saying to replace a character with a single model in the context of a declined challenge isn't more specific than "As far as possible there must be the same number of models in each rank" ????

Yes, because you can replace the single character witha single model, and still fill the gap with the other models without breaking the challenge rule.

Fair enough.

Is everyone (not counting Davall and nos) playing that when characters die, they immediately are replaced by RnF who can then attack?

There was a sentence in the 7th book under Redress that stated that is when you move in holes for characters, even though 7th had the same early blurb about forming into units. Without redress in 8th, I guess it happens immediately - it just seems a decent sized change that wasn't very explicit. Would prefer to see it FAQed or specifically mentioned.

In 7th it wasnt an issue, because only models that were there at the start get to fight - people "moving forward" into the fighting rank didnt get to fight.

this is a consequence of that heavily publicised change: if you are there when your I step comes around you get to fight.

Well, it wouldn't have really mattered if it was an issue because the timing would have applied the same way. According to you, the part on page 5 would dictate you move up the model immediately. In 7th, that apparently wasn't true, since they went out of their way to tell you to move up the model later and the wording on unit size was the same. Furthermore, in 8th, there's a section that tells you exactly when to move up a model for the champion. But nothing for characters.

So in doubt you follow page 5, and you make the unit a legal formation again.

KISS seems to work here, 8th ed has removed a whole host of complex-for-complexity's sake rules