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So I've seriously revamped my list over the last few days, and I'm looking for some critiques. If you're wondering why anything on this list is, in fact, on this list, I'd be happy to explain every upgrade and its purpose.

And I hope Brothererekose sees the list, I'd like to have his feedback in particular.

Anyway, here it is:

2494 Points total

HQ

-Shas'O Vior'la Savon Kunas Mont'yr +173
Plasma Rifle, TL Missile Pod, HW Multi-Tracker, HW Drone Controller, Stimulant Injector, Bonding Knife, Shield Drone (2)

TROOPS

-10 Fire Warriors +220
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

-10 Fire Warriors +220
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

-10 Fire Warriors +100

-10 Fire Warriors +100

ELITE

-3 Crisis Battlesuits +196
Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife
Plasma Rifle (3), Missile Pod (3), MT (3)

-3 Crisis Battlesuits +160
Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife
Burst cannon (3), Missile Pod (3), MT (3)

-3 Crisis Battlesuits +160
Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife
Burst Cannon (3), Missile Pod (3), MT (3)

FAST ATTACK

-5 Pathfinders +195
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

-5 Pathfinders +195
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

-3 Pirhanas +255
--Fusion Blaster (3), Targeting Array (3), Disruption Pods (3), Flechette Discharger (3)

HEAVY SUPPORT

-Hammerhead +170
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

-Hammerhead +135
Multi-tracker, Target Lock, Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

-2 Broadside Battlesuits +215
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, HW Drone Controller, HW Target Lock, Shield Drone (2), Targeting Array (2)

SaintHazard wrote:And I hope Brothererekose sees the list, I'd like to have his feedback in particular.

Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated.

SaintHazard wrote:-Shas'O Vior'la Savon Kunas Mont'yr +173
Plasma Rifle, TL Missile Pod, HW Multi-Tracker, HW Drone Controller, Stimulant Injector, Bonding Knife, Shield Drone (2)

You've had the advice of using a Shas'El with Target Array to keep BS5. Is it for the extra wound onna Shas'O? Oh, and you're Twin-Linking something that will only miss on a '1'.

SaintHazard wrote:x4:
-10 Fire Warriors +220
Devilfish w/ Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Smart Missile System

Keep in mind, that your Pathfinders won't be using their d'fish, so you need only get 3 for your 4 FW units, and the last FW crew will use the PFs' Warfish. That's another 100+ points to spend.
More Crisis Suits?
Vespid?

SaintHazard wrote:x2
-3 Crisis Battlesuits +205
Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock, Bonding Knife
TL Plasma Rifle (3), Targeting Array (3)

3 suits in a unit only yielding 3 to 6 shots, depending on Rapid Fire range ... I like volume fire. Now, if you're regularly facing Deathwing, or TH/SS spam, then I guess these are good, but when adding MP or BC, it really increases the threat these unit pose.

SaintHazard wrote:-8 Pathfinders +231
Shas'ui w/ Bonding Knife, HW Drone Controller, Gun Drone (2)

Why the GDs? More bodies?

All the rest is good, the HHs, b-sides, piranhas.

Brothererekose wrote:Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated.

What can I say, you know your stuff.

Brothererekose wrote:You've had the advice of using a Shas'El with Target Array to keep BS5. Is it for the extra wound onna Shas'O? Oh, and you're Twin-Linking something that will only miss on a '1'.

With no bodyguard, I want the extra wound on the Shas'O. As for the TL weapon system, he can only fire two weapons, I figure why not make the cheaper weapon TL (only an extra 6 points) which effectively gives him BS10 with that weapon only. Would you suggest something different?

Brothererekose wrote:Keep in mind, that your Pathfinders won't be using their d'fish, so you need only get 3 for your 4 FW units, and the last FW crew will use the PFs' Warfish. That's another 100+ points to spend.
More Crisis Suits?
Vespid?

That's true, but Warfish can lay down some hurt, and it gives me some redundancy if one of them goes pop. Plus, I may want to deploy my Pathfinders in the Devilfish so I can move them quickly to where they need to be on the battlefield. However, more Crisis suits isn't a bad alternative. I'll see what I can dig up for 100 points when I get home. Perhaps a Deathrain configuration battlesuit team, as per your next point:

Brothererekose wrote:3 suits in a unit only yielding 3 to 6 shots, depending on Rapid Fire range ... I like volume fire. Now, if you're regularly facing Deathwing, or TH/SS spam, then I guess these are good, but when adding MP or BC, it really increases the threat these unit pose.

See above. Would you suggest removing the Targeting Arrays in favor of a Missile Pod or Burst Cannon? Or are you suggesting removing one Plasma Rifle, and firing without being TL? Keep in mind, these guys don't have multi-trackers...

Brothererekose wrote:Why the GDs? More bodies?

I had 20 points to blow, so I basically added 2 wounds to the unit. So yes, more bodies. However, if I need those 20 points for something else (possibly see above), those will be the first to go.

Brothererekose wrote:All the rest is good, the HHs, b-sides, piranhas.

The only other thing I was uncertain about was the flechettes on the Piranhas. I figure with fusion blasters these guys are going to be getting up close, might as well protect them from an assault, especially with their low armor. So you think that's a good idea then?

And thanks for the feedback.

SaintHazard wrote:With no bodyguard, I want the extra wound on the Shas'O. As for the TL weapon system, he can only fire two weapons, I figure why not make the cheaper weapon TL (only an extra 6 points) which effectively gives him BS10 with that weapon only. Would you suggest something different?

a few points for BS10. Pretty good bargain.

SaintHazard wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:3 suits in a unit only yielding 3 to 6 shots, depending on Rapid Fire range ... I like volume fire. Now, if you're regularly facing Deathwing, or TH/SS spam, then I guess these are good, but when adding MP or BC, it really increases the threat these unit pose.

See above. Would you suggest removing the Targeting Arrays in favor of a Missile Pod or Burst Cannon? Or are you suggesting removing one Plasma Rifle, and firing without being TL? Keep in mind, these guys don't have multi-trackers...

Yeah. Except I would add the MT. Then a MP or BC. This Burning Eye load-out is really inefficient, IMHO.

http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=939 (for the names)

SaintHazard wrote:The only other thing I was uncertain about was the flechettes on the Piranhas. I figure with fusion blasters these guys are going to be getting up close, might as well protect them from an assault, especially with their low armor. So you think that's a good idea then?

Flechettes for piranha are good for the reason you cited. Most infantry guns can't bring 'em down, so piranhas get assaulted.

I could go with a Fireknife configuration for both Battlesuit teams, but I really don't like losing the Targeting Array. And it'll be a bit more expensive, but I can move some points around to make it work.

Although with a greater volume of fire, the lower BS will matter less, I suppose.

In fact, I think if I nix one D'fish, take away the gun drones in the PF team, I could do three teams all in Fireknife configuration.

I'm gonna need to wait until I get home before I can make any changes (no codex here with me at work) but as soon as I do I'll make the proper changes.

At this point value you could save a lot of points by trimming some stuff down. less firewarriors per squad, removing the targeting array and multi tracker on the fishes. Making the elite suits into classic fireknives would work well too (thought it wouldnt really save points).

After that I would use your new points to reconfigure to make sure you have your elite slots full (adding a unit of XV8s), and splitting up your pathfinders into a 2x5 or 2x6 configuration. You can also drop a fish and just board a fw team to the pathfinder fish first turn, saving the points of a firewarrior devilfish (2, if you take my advice about the 2 squads thing).

The lower bs of the fireknives need not be worried about, because you'll have 2 units of pathfinders to use where you need the markerlights. It also helps keeping your momentum going after your first target is destroyed (light it up with one unit of pathfinders, take it down with something, then use the next unit of pathfinders on something else, or on the same target if its still alive and you need it taken out right away).

If you have the points left over at this point, I would add a broadside to your current unit, and maybe upgrade the ion cannon to a railhead. This part can be ignored if you like, but I think it would be more effective.

If you STILL have points to blow after that (considering all the trimming I told you, I haven't calculated though), then I would suggest giving your crisis teams shield drones. You'd be amazed how they affect your survivability, often giving you a turn or two more of shooting if they have taken some fire.

By the way, I like your piranha team. multi-flechettes is kind of my dream (five, to be exact).

SaintHazard wrote:I could go with a Fireknife configuration for both Battlesuit teams, but I really don't like losing the Targeting Array. And it'll be a bit more expensive, but I can move some points around to make it work.

Although with a greater volume of fire, the lower BS will matter less, I suppose.

That's what the Pathfinders are for. For the first couple years I played tau (this was in 4e), I didn't use PFs, and would pay extra for the Team Leader to get the TA for better Ballistic Skill, and I'd chafe and complain about the other FireKnife in the unit *not* having a TA. Then, when I realized what a Warfish was, the PFs and their mandatory 'fish no longer seemed so inefficient. I started using them a bit.

With 5e allowing transports to pick up other units, I dropped the Team Leader and Target Array altogether. PFs are also more needed, because Cover Saves are so plentiful now.

I no longer worry about the Suits being BS3.

SaintHazard wrote:In fact, I think if I nix one D'fish, take away the gun drones in the PF team, I could do three teams all in Fireknife configuration.

I'm gonna need to wait until I get home before I can make any changes (no codex here with me at work) but as soon as I do I'll make the proper changes.

May I suggest that you give FireStorms a try, perhaps one team? BC/MP/MT. MAthHammer-wise, they're close in effectiveness in killing MEqs as is the FireKnife ... don't ask me for the exact ratio though.

Someone at ATT figured it out and the article shouldn't be too hard to find.

Those are some interesting suggestions - I'll have to look into the point value of nixing a second D'fish in the FW teams and taking two teams of 5 PFs instead of 1 team of 8 - you are correct in that having PFs available to fire on two targets might be better than just one large team.

As for the Battlesuits, as per above, I think I will be changing them all to Fireknives, and adding a third team. I'm just going to have to see where the points lie after that. Regarding the extra Railhead, I don't want to oversaturate myself with railguns. I don't face that many horde armies (though if I start playing tournaments, of course I might) and MEqs make up my biggest opponent base - hence the Ionhead, and hence the Burning Eyes.

I'm keeping the Ionhead for versatility, but I may look into a third Broadside (they're expensive, though).

As for fewer FW per team, that could work, especially since they're mostly to be used for holding down objectives while my Battlesuits and railguns do most of the dirty work. Maybe 8 per team? I don't want to take less than 8, because then morale checks are going to become an issue the moment they start taking casualties. Whenever they take fire, with only a 4+ armor save, they almost always lose two or three to a volley.

As for the TA and MT on the fishes, is that really a good idea? These are going to be mobile weapon platforms, I want to be able to fire everything they've got, and decently - otherwise there's really very little point in taking Warfish, I may as well just downgrade them to basic D'fish with drones, and I don't want to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:That's what the Pathfinders are for. For the first couple years I played tau (this was in 4e), I didn't use PFs, and would pay extra for the Team Leader to get the TA for better Ballistic Skill, and I'd chafe and complain about the other FireKnife in the unit *not* having a TA. Then, when I realized what a Warfish was, the PFs and their mandatory 'fish no longer seemed so inefficient. I started using them a bit.

With 5e allowing transports to pick up other units, I dropped the Team Leader and Target Array altogether. PFs are also more needed, because Cover Saves are so plentiful now.

I no longer worry about the Suits being BS3.

Good point.

Brothererekose wrote:May I suggest that you give FireStorms a try, perhaps one team? BC/MP/MT. MAthHammer-wise, they're close in effectiveness in killing MEqs as is the FireKnife ... don't ask me for the exact ratio though.

Someone at ATT figured it out and the article shouldn't be too hard to find.

Not a fan of loads and loads of plasma rifles? I'll look into it, if it's cheaper (and I'm pretty sure it is) I may go with that build instead.

Brothererekose wrote:May I suggest that you give FireStorms a try, perhaps one team? BC/MP/MT. MAthHammer-wise, they're close in effectiveness in killing MEqs as is the FireKnife ... don't ask me for the exact ratio though.

Someone at ATT figured it out and the article shouldn't be too hard to find.

If you ignore the concept of cover, then in 3 man teams, plasma would kill roughlyl 1.25/2.50 (depending on range cus of rapid fire), while burst cannons would kill 1.

Cover saves involved would sweep in the burst cannons favour, but increasing bs with markerlights would help the plasma more. If you consider that markerlights might deal with both of these things, the plasma comes out on top in marine killing. It can also attempt to pen a rhino, when a burst cannon can only glance (pairing it up with the missle pod is better in that regard). It also helps the suits deal with terminators and the like (unless they have storm shields, which makes it slightly less effective), as your configuration cannot deal with them. Consider the fact that not much else in the tau book can deal with such heavily armoured enemies ( you probably wont waste your railgun shots on them as much).

ssREV wrote: removing the targeting array and multi tracker on the fishes.

The whole point of having MT and TA is to make the SMS and BC count as an effective gunboat. Otherwise, the 'fish may as well be stripped down to just a DisPod and no SMS.

ssREV wrote:If you STILL have points to blow after that (considering all the trimming I told you, I haven't calculated though), then I would suggest giving your crisis teams shield drones. You'd be amazed how they affect your survivability, often giving you a turn or two more of shooting if they have taken some fire..

I'll agree that SDs increase the survivability to shooting. The thing is, once a pair or trio of Suits acquires a couple SDs, the 'foot print' of the unit becomes quite large, making it impossible to JSJ back behind LoS blocking terrain (of any is available) and be safe for a round of enemy shooting. Second problem is the unit's large size makes it far easier to track down and catch into h2h; pretty much the worse thing that can happen.

For these two reasons, I field only pairs and trios of XV8s, no drones.

Actually, I just realized I can very easily nix a second D'fish and split my 8-man squad of Pathfinders into two 4-man squads with no point value change.

I have the extra FA slot to use, I may as well do that.

10 Markerlights may be a bit many (which is why I originally nixed my two squads of 8 with 5 ML each in favor of 1 squad of 8 with 8 ML) but 4 and 4 is a pretty good number.

And it's been decided regarding D'fish, they're all staying Warfish. I'm not changing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also realized that taking BC instead of Plasma Rifles on the Battlesuits also robs me of 6" range. Only one shot at that range, yes, but I think I'd rather have the range than not. Having to get within 18" makes me frighteningly vulnerable to assault (especially against bikes and jetbikes).

I'd rather have the 1 plasma shot at 24" than 3 BC shots at 18". I'm sticking with Fireknives.

Brothererekose wrote:

ssREV wrote: removing the targeting array and multi tracker on the fishes.

The whole point of having MT and TA is to make the SMS and BC count as an effective gunboat. Otherwise, the 'fish may as well be stripped down to just a DisPod and no SMS.

ssREV wrote:If you STILL have points to blow after that (considering all the trimming I told you, I haven't calculated though), then I would suggest giving your crisis teams shield drones. You'd be amazed how they affect your survivability, often giving you a turn or two more of shooting if they have taken some fire..

I'll agree that SDs increase the survivability to shooting. The thing is, once a pair or trio of Suits acquires a couple SDs, the 'foot print' of the unit becomes quite large, making it impossible to JSJ back behind LoS blocking terrain (of any is available) and be safe for a round of enemy shooting. Second problem is the unit's large size makes it far easier to track down and catch into h2h; pretty much the worse thing that can happen.

For these two reasons, I field only pairs and trios of XV8s, no drones.

I don't get the option to hide fully behind cover to block line of sight, so it may be for my play style. Since im usually in line of sight (probably with cover), I appreciate being able to dish off those instant death hits somewhere else.

Also, about the devilfish stuff, it may be personal opinion, but I merely don't consider a devilfish to be part of my "firepower". that title exclusively belongs to my suits (including broadsides) and hammerhead(s). I will try to dabble in piranhas more in the future but to me they seem to have shooting as a secondary purpose.

That said, I usually just load up on firepower and hope they ignore my devilfish units (if they do fire on it though, I am glad they have AV 12 and disruption pods. I've had games where I made every cover save on them, though my opponents tend not to be so happy about it). Sometimes I use a devilfish to shoot if, either: a) I am desperate or b) I see no possible loss by moving less than cruising and shooting a little. I sometimes give them SMS, if I can find the points, in order to lower my # of kill points on the table. If I am building a list around a certain idea, then sometimes I don't have the points left over for it and I just cause mischief with the gun drones that I send out (not in annihilation obviously).

Thats why I put 6x firewarriors in a devilfish with not much more than a disruption pod, maybe an SMS, and a flechette discharger if I'm feeling cheeky. Flechettes aren't always effective, but I like them because they are....unique. I take the fish and try to keep it out of harms way, and its usually a pathfinder fish so if I feel like deep striking it can help me out. This usually causes a routine of having to mount on turn 1, though, since its dedicated to the pathfinders.

Also, about the OPs comment on 10 pathfinders being a bit much. 2500 points is pretty big. I'm sure they would come in handy, especially when half of them are bound to miss. entirely up to you though. I consider it points well spent.

Of course, this all is based on my own likings and/or experience. If you disagree feel free to work differently.

Warfish can be absolutely devastating anti-infantry weapon platforms when used properly.

The way I see it:

1) Get as many infantry squads as is necessary to objectives and drop them off.
2) Advance Devilfish (not pathfinder Devilfish, since they have further use that doesn't involve more dakka) upfield and
3) Unleash 7 barrels of S5 hell
4) Laugh as his infantry dwindle.

Now this may be a bit cavalier for 120 point APCs, but I've seen it work.

SaintHazard wrote:I also realized that taking BC instead of Plasma Rifles on the Battlesuits also robs me of 6" range. Only one shot at that range, yes, but I think I'd rather have the range than not. Having to get within 18" makes me frighteningly vulnerable to assault (especially against bikes and jetbikes).

I'd rather have the 1 plasma shot at 24" than 3 BC shots at 18". I'm sticking with Fireknives.

"... frighteningly vulnerable" ? 18" and then JSJ away? Eh, I wouldn't say that. But, for a lot less points, you get two more dice. That one AP2 shot of yours is rather pricey. 'Course, when I use FKs, I chafe at the long range, and like to jump into Rapid Fire range for two shots with the PR.

But, having read up on a few threads of your posts recently, I know I'll not be able to dissuade you. FKs are still, arguably, the best load-out. I'd just been wondering if you were willing to *try* one team of FireStorms ...

... c'mon, dude. Every one is doing it. You don't wanna be the one kid who isn't. You wanna be cool, right? Just one try won't hurcha ... I been doin' it for years ...

Pricy, but more likely to get results against the enemies I usually face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, the list has been updated, but! As you can see, I'm short 30 points.

What should I add?

Three Fire Warriors?

A Marker Drone?

Let's hear some ideas.