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Looking for suggestions and recommendations for my chapter based on heavy weaponry (stand back and shoot 'em). I found that i like fielding an honour guard squad with my chapter master, but my terminators didn't do so well (they were hit with 5 plasma cannons though). I've also noticed that the heavy bolters on devastators aren't as good as the missile launchers. I think that it may be in my best interest to lose a few things here and add a predator, though I'm not sure what to lose. I already plan on giving both dreadnoughts autocannons, and I'm debating giving the honour guard relic blades. I also realize that I need a teleport homer on one of my squads to prevent the mishap that led to the plasma cannon incident. The bikes I plan on removing entirely, and I'm debating on removing the land speeder. How much use do sniper scouts get? I could use those points to help field another tactical squad or a sternguard squad. Also I apologize for listing the points costs of the upgrades, I didn't read the rules until after I posted.

Crimson Storm Chapter 2000 point Army List.

HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 163 points
-Storm Bolter and Power sword: 18 points
-Artificer Armour: 15 points
-Melta-Bombs: 5 points
-Iron Halo, Frag/Krak grenades, Orbital Bombardment Rule

5 Honour Guard: 210 points
3 honour guard, 1 Chapter Champion, 1 Honour guard with chapter banner
-Artificer Armour, Frag/Krak Grenades.
Honour guard members have power weapons and bolt pistols
Razorback "Ensis" as Dedicated transport

Space Marine Chaplain: 130 points
-Storm Bolter, Crozius Arcanum, Rosarius and Terminator Armour: 30 points
Honour of the Chapter and Liturgies of Battle Special Rules
Troops:

Tactical Squad "Tonitrus": 175 points
9 Space Marines, 1 Sergeant: 150 points
1 Space Marine carries Missile Launcher: free
1 Space Marine carries Meltagun: 5 points
Sergeant carries Chainsword and Bolt Pistol:
Dedicated Transport Rhino "Technitos"

Tactical Squad "Niphetos": 160 points
9 Space Marines, 1 Sergeant: 150 points
1 Space Marine carries Plasma Gun: 10 points
1 Space Marine carries Heavy Bolter: free
Sergeant carries Chainsword and Bolt Pistol

Scout Squad "Coma": 75 points
4 Scouts, 1 Sergeant
-Sniper Rifles, Scout Armor
Infiltrade, Move through Cover, Scout special rules
Transported in Land Speeder Storm "Affligo"

Transports:

Rhino "Technitos": 50 points
transports 10 models
-2 Storm Bolters: 10 points
-Dozer Blade: 5 points
Repair Special Rule

Razorback "Ensis": 90 points
transports 6 models
-Twin Linked Lascannon: 35 points
-Storm Bolter: 10 points
Dozer Blade: 5 points

Elites:
Dreadnought "Brother Fulgur": 115 points
-Multi-Melta, Close Combat Weapon, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight
-Replaced Storm Bolter with Heavy Flamer: 10 points

Dreadnought: "Brother Grano": 135 points
-Smoke Launchers, Searchlight
-Twin Linked Autocannon: 10 points
-Missile Launcher: 10 points

Terminator Squad "Punitor": 225 points
4 Terminators, 1 Sergeant
-Terminators carry Chainfists and Storm Bolters: 20 points
-1 Terminator carries Heavy Flamer: 5 points
-Sergeant Carries Storm Bolter and Power Sword

Fast Attack:

Land Speeder Storm "Affligo": 65 points
Multi-Melta: 15 points
Jamming Beacon, Cerberus Launcher

Bike Squadron "Accendo": 100 points
2 bikers, 1 sergeant
-Bikers have flamers: 10 points
-Sergeant carries Bolt Pistol and Chain Sword

Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad "Cruor": 150 points
4 devastators, 1 sergeant
-2 Marines carry Heavy Bolters: 30 points
-2 marines carry Missile Launchers: 30 points
-Sergeant carries Boltgun

Devastator Squad "Eruptio": 150 points
4 devastators, 1 sergeant
2 devastators carrie Heavy Bolters: 30 points
2 Devastators carry Missile Launchers: 30 points
Sergeant carries Boltgun

Total: 1993 points.
Chapter Motto: "Punio Tempestas!" (Storm of Vengeance)

Imo if your technique is stand back and shoot, then get rid of the bikes, transports and landspeeder. With these points buy some more heavy units, like devastators with stuff other than missile launchers and heavy bolter. btw: its nice to see someone proposing a list where the Dev sergeants don't have power weapons or fists.

With standing back and shooting you can go two ways:

Devs or Mech

DEVASTATORS:

People don't like Devastators cause they die very easily. Even in cover something nasty like a Large Blast or cover ignoring weapons will pose a problem.
BUT, for your points you can field a 10 man squad with 4 Missile Launchers (very versatile) or even 4 lascannons!
10 men in a squad means lots of wounds keeping your 4 heavy guys alive for a while longer. If you're really anti-mech devs are the way to go!

MECH

There are two ways with mech.
Dreadnoughts or Tanks.

Dreadnought in Heavy Support role is usually Lascannon & Missile launcher, or Plasma Cannon & Missile Launcher.
This means your big bad dread won't be getting into close combat (which is where you REALLY want it), but it's more mobile than a tank (it can walk through terrain you can't drive through) and has good armour.

Three Kinds of Tanks you can take:
Vindicator.
At 115 points it may seem expensive at first glance, but it's actually 5 points cheaper than the Predator in its most versatile form. And you get a Demolisher Cannon for that. Add a siege shield if you want to get closer to the enemy (why would you) and keep your Str 10 Large Blast cannon decimating enemy positions (the aforementioned Devastators for example)

Predator
There are 3 forms of Predator. Anti-Infantry, Mixed, and Anti-Armour.
Anti-Infantry: Take some Heavy Bolter Sponsons and start mowing infantry down at a rate of knots. Just don't think you'll last long against a lot of mech armies with this setup.
Mixed: Lascannon Sponsons and Autocannon. Very versatile. The Autocannon allows you 2 Str 7 AP 2 attacks. while the lascannons are.......lascannons. With this setup you can take out tough characters, and tanks.
Anti-Armour: 165 points of lascannon goodness. Twin-Linked turret means you can reroll your lascannon roll. while the 2 sponsons give you extra shots for taking Rhinos out or giving Land Raiders a headache (weapons destroyed, Immobilised, Shaken and Stunned....).

Land Raider.
Normal for long range lascannon goodness
Crusader for piling in LOTS of troops or a large Terminator Squad
Redeemer for when you want to flush your targets out of cover.

Devastator Squad "Cruor": 150 points
4 devastators, 1 sergeant
-2 Marines carry Heavy Bolters: 30 points
-2 marines carry Missile Launchers: 30 points
-Sergeant carries Boltgun

Devastator Squad "Eruptio": 150 points
4 devastators, 1 sergeant
2 devastators carrie Heavy Bolters: 30 points
2 Devastators carry Missile Launchers: 30 points
Sergeant carries Boltgun

Not really effective unless you field Long Fangs.
I'd take 4 missile launchers per Dev squad, nothing else.

eolis223 wrote:I apologize for listing the points costs of the upgrades, I didn't read the rules until after I posted.

So, go back and edit them out; use the yellow EDIT button.

eolis223 wrote:Chapter Master -Storm Bolter and Power sword: -Artificer Armour -Melta-Bombs:
Space Marine Chaplain: -Storm Bolter,

Give back the StormBolters and stick with BoltPistols. The BP gives an extra attack in h2h with the PWeapon, ignoring Armor Saves.. The SB's extra shot still yields an armor save, and SM Independent Characters excel at h2h, not shooting.

eolis223 wrote:Razorback "Ensis":-Twin Linked Lascannon:-Storm Bolter:

Think of the LC's range and purpose, anti-Tank, and the SB's range and purpose, anti-Infantry. Since the razor can't target two different units ... The SB is a waste of points ... better spent on another PFist for the other sgt.

eolis223 wrote:Dreadnought: -Twin Linked Autocannon: Missile Launcher:

Like your Razor Ensis, you're mixing weapons and purpose. Go LAsCan/ML for an all anti-Tank dread.

eolis223 wrote:Devastator Squad -"Cruor" 2 Marines carry Heavy Bolters: -2 marines carry Missile Launchers:
Devastator Squad "Eruptio":2 devastators carrie Heavy Bolters:
2 Devastators carry Missile Launchers:

I dunno what to say. Why aren't these two squads one all HBs and the other all MLs? Did you get confused by hearing about Long Fangs? Here's a key piece of advice for 40k: Dedicate a unit to a single purpose: Anti-Infantry *or* Anti-Tank. You'll find things work more effectively.

BTW: This advice does fly in the face of a "tactical" squad's set up having a Heavy Wep and such, but I usually just use them as anti-I, as firing a LasCan or ML are a tank means that 8 or 9 bolters are silent.

So, to sum up:
1. Give back every extra Storm Bolter and the ones on the characters and buy the sergeants Pfists.
2. Put all the same weapons in your Dev Crews.

I'm not going to advise getting rid of the bikes or Devs. Play 'em. Most of the advise you need is not spending points on stuff that is useless (SB onna LasCan Razor or StormBolter on a Chaplain) and to *buy* the stuff that is *very* useful, PFists.

On the Pfist - I take it that you don't have the model? It's worth it to buy 4 of the Pfist bits and convert the sgt models. You won't really every need more than 4 though.


There's the little grammar goof up!, sorry, eolis223

Alright, I think I'm going to ditch the heavy bolters entirely and make both devastator squads missile squads. As for power fists on the Devastator sergeants, what's the point? I don't want my devastators anywhere near the front lines. Finally, why is the chaplain useless?

Definitely drop the Devastator units and pick up a Vindicator or two. S10 AP1 with that giant template is a nightmare especially to people who run horde type armies.

Thoughts on my new and improved Army list?

Crimson Storm 2000pt army list

HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 155 points
-Artificer Armour, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

Honour Guard Squad: 175 points
3 Guards w/Power Swords and Bolt Pistols, 1 carries chapter banner
1 Champion with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Transport Razorback1

Troops:

Tactical Squad: 195 points
7 marines with boltgun
1 marine with Missile Launcher
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 sergeant with power fist and Bolt pistol
Transport Rhino1

Tactical Squad: 195 points
7 Marines with Boltgun
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 Marine with Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant with power fist and Bolt Pistol

Scout Squad: 85 points
3 Scouts with Snipers
1 Scout with Missile Launcher
1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper

Transports:

Rhino1: 50 points
-extra Armour

Razorback1: 90 points
-Twlin-linked Lascannon, Extra Armour

Elites:

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Multimelta, Plasma Cannon

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Ironclad Dreadnought: 150 points
Hurricane Bolter, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun

Techmarine: 65 points
Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Servo-arm

Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Predator: 165 points
Twin-Linked Lascannon, Side Sponson Lascannons

Vindicator: 125 points
Seige Shield, Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter

Total: 2000 points

Err, you have too many elites choices as well as too many heavy choices. Your only allowed 3.

eolis223 wrote:As for power fists on the Devastator sergeants, what's the point? I don't want my devastators anywhere near the front lines. Finally, why is the chaplain useless?

1. Power Fists are one of the best upgrades you can possibly give to unit, nothing sucks more than having your dev squad assaulted by a MC and have nothing to defend it with. remember deep striking, infiltration, outflanking and mechinzation quickly redraws the battle lines.
2. chaplains are pretty much inferior captains, beyond that librarians are the best marine HQ choice.

other than that listen to Brothererekose, he's got the problems with the list pretty much nailed.

Wow I'm surprised at some of the advice here, which I would call terrible.

Chaplains are a good (cheap CC) HQ choice. Powerfists on Devastators ARE useless upgrades. If your devastators are in melee, you are either already lost or doing something wrong.

If your devastators get assaulted, you should be using another unit to dig them out of the assault. Alternatively, you should be just not getting them assaulted until such a point in the game where it does not matter.

Your list does not follow the FOC max 3 elites and 3 heavies - both of which you have 4.

In terms of competitiveness you are using several choices which are not effective for their point cost. Examples of this are the chapter master, honor guard and devastators. You are buying upgrades that are bad for the points they cost such as putting extra armor on rhinos and razorbacks, storm bolter on the vindicator, TL las turret on predator.

Also putting the hurricane bolter on the ironclad seems bad, as does your dreadnought weapon configurations.

First of all, I really like your Army's theme and name. It's good to see a well developed Chapter with named units and everything. Don't listen to the Devastator hate, either. I use them is the same pattern as in your second list and they absolutely wreck house.

The Techmarine will disappoint you, badly. What was his purpose?

If I were you i'd ditch him and the predator and buy some Drop Pods for your Dreads, not to mention make your list legal! Use the rest of the points for other upgrades here and there, or maybe another scout squad.

Apologies, I wasn't paying attention to the FOC when i put this list together. Think it's worth replacing the techmarine with a Master of the Forge?

I like them. Is just ask what role he would play in the list.

The Techmarine was to join the Chapter Master and his Honour Guard, riding in the razorback if needed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And now with slight revision. I changed the power fists on the Tactical Sergeants to Power weapons, I don't think the reduction of initiative to 1 is worth it. The extra points allow me to field another group of snipers though

Crimson Storm 2000pt army list

HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 155 points
-Artificer Armour, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

Honour Guard Squad: 175 points
3 Guards w/Power Swords and Bolt Pistols, 1 carries chapter banner
1 Champion with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Transport Razorback1

Librarian: 150 points
Epistolary, Smite, Machine Curse

Troops:

Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 marines with boltgun
1 marine with Missile Launcher
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 sergeant with power weapon and Bolt pistol
Transport Rhino1

Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 Marines with Boltgun
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 Marine with Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant with power weapon and Bolt Pistol

Scout Squad: 85 points
3 Scouts with Snipers
1 Scout with Missile Launcher
1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper

Scout Squad: 75 points
4 scouts with snipers
1 sergeant with sniper

Transports:

Rhino1: 35 points

Razorback1: 75 points
-Twlin-linked Lascannon

Drop pod1: 55 points
-Deathwind Launcher


Elites:

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Multimelta, Plasma Cannon

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Ironclad Dreadnought: 150 points
Hurricane Bolter, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
Transport Drop pod1


Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Vindicator: 125 points
Seige Shield, Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter

Total: 2000 points

All suggestions will be weighed, considered, and appreciated

Even with epistolary you will not be able to use both powers in the same turn, as they are both psychic shooting attacks. Instead, Force dome is something to consider to try and toughen up the squad. Avenger is probably going to be better than smite, but try them both out and see how you like them.

Your dreadnoughts have weird weapon configurations. Multimelta/plasmacannon is not a legal configuration first of all. The DCCW can only be replaced by a TL autocannon or a ML. Go both ML/PC if you like it, but it just doesn't seem useful to me : /.

Hurricane bolter on Ironclad always seems counter-intuitive to me. You can only assault what you shoot at, and the hurricane bolter is good at shooting things you don't really want to get bogged down in assault with.

If you're going to have Epistolary you need to have a shooting AND close combat psychic attack.

For example Null Zone and Might of Ancients.

Powerfists on dev squads are a waste of points. If you really want an insurance take a power weapon.

Besides, anything that is going to assault a dev squad probably has the capacity to rip them all apart before the sarge even gets to swing his fist.

Your list is definitely looking better. As people said, you need to reconsider the powers on your librarian. Null Zone is an absolute must-have power imo. Smite is fine as well but I tend to prefer The Avenger; AP 3 template with no cover saves is awesome. I don't find the Epistolary to be worth the 50 pts since you will rarely use two powers in one turn but try it out for yourself.

One vindicator typically isn't a good choice since it will most likely get destroyed on turn one, which is why most people take two. Unfortunately you can't get two unless you drop a dev squad. Maybe consider doing that and upgrading the PC/ML dred to a TLLC/ML. It seems like you would still have plenty of long range anti-tank and that way you'll almost certainly guarantee that at least one vindicator will get in to do some damage, maybe even both if you're lucky.

Alright, I've got 95 points left but no idea what to do with them. Is the ironclad dreadnought that much better than a regular one? I could downgrade it to a regular dreadnought and use the extra points to field another group of devastators or maybe a predator/Whirlwind

Crimson Storm 2000pt army list

HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 155 points
-Artificer Armour, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

Honour Guard Squad: 175 points
3 Guards w/Power Swords and Bolt Pistols, 1 carries chapter banner
1 Champion with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Transport Razorback1

Librarian: 150 points
Epistolary, Null zone, Avenger

Troops:

Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 marines with boltgun
1 marine with Missile Launcher
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 sergeant with power weapon and Bolt pistol
Transport Rhino1

Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 Marines with Boltgun
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 Marine with Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant with power weapon and Bolt Pistol

Scout Squad: 85 points
3 Scouts with Snipers
1 Scout with Missile Launcher
1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper

Scout Squad: 75 points
4 scouts with snipers
1 sergeant with sniper

Transports:

Rhino1: 35 points

Razorback1: 75 points
-Twlin-linked Lascannon

Drop pod1: 55 points
-Deathwind Launcher


Elites:

Dreadnought: 145 points
-Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Ironclad Dreadnought: 160 points
Close Combat Weapon w/Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
Transport Drop pod1


Heavy Support:

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol


Total: 1905 points

The only thing I would change is dropping the deathwind and lascannons on the razorback and beef up those devastator squads.

Part of the problem is that the army seems confused honestly. Making it competitive would require a massive overhaul.

Without doing that, you are left with just filling up the remaining points, which a Dakka pred would do. Dakka pred is 85 points, leaving you with 10.

Note that your CC squad is going to have a hell of a time hurting MCs with only S4 weaponry.

If you make the scouts 1 squad, you won't have a second sgt, but could still combat squad them to have the 2 squads. This would give you 10 points. Then you have 20 points to upgrade the chapter master to have a relic blade and meltabombs. That way he can threaten anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactically you are going to run into the following issue: your razorback will be targeted early until it is killed. You expensive squad is in the expensive transport. Great target, easy choice to make for your opponent. Then dealing with that squad is suddenly easy.

Since so many people have already highlighted many good and bad points about the list, what I'm going to say may sound repetitive. However, there is one thing that I don't see many people touching on, and that is your Honor Guard squad.

IMHO, Honor Guards are not worth the points invested into them. Indeed, they are strong and versatile, but in games that are less than 3000 points, I would personally not field them, and put the points invested to use somewhere else.

In your case, you want to play a Heavy Shooting army. That, I think, heavily contradicts having an Honor Guard squad in the list, since they specialize mostly in close combat.

Now I'll go over your list item by item:

eolis223 wrote:
HQ:
Chapter Master Andus Tempestus the Avenger: 155 points
-Artificer Armour, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol

This is fine, although you might want to consider putting him in Terminator Armor instead. That way he would become "Relentless", and not limit you to being stationary when using Orbital Bombardment. Having your Chapter Master in Close Combat could be integral for your list to succeed, so making him more versatile would be important. Consider giving him a Lightning claw and a Storm Shield, to A) increase his chances of wounding and B) make him more durable with a 3+ Invul save.

eolis223 wrote:
Honour Guard Squad: 175 points
3 Guards w/Power Swords and Bolt Pistols, 1 carries chapter banner
1 Champion with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Transport Razorback1

Dead weight, IMHO. Especially in a 2000 point list. Forgive me for being blunt, but I think they are.

eolis223 wrote:
Librarian: 150 points
Epistolary, Null zone, Avenger

I'll say the samething about the Librarian as the Chapter Master. TERMINATOR ARMOR w/ STORM SHIELD. Null Zone is one of the best psychic powers in the whole game, and while Avenger is nice, you'll have limited range with it since it's a Template weapon. I'd go with Vortex of Doom or Smite instead. So now, even if you suffer Perils of the Warp, you'll at least have a 3+ Invul save, which let me remind you, LIBRARIANS NEVER COME STOCK WITH.

eolis223 wrote:
Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 marines with boltgun
1 marine with Missile Launcher
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 sergeant with power weapon and Bolt pistol
Transport Rhino1

Tactical Squad: 185 points
7 Marines with Boltgun
1 Marine with Meltagun
1 Marine with Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant with power weapon and Bolt Pistol

Invest 10 points into each of your Tact Squads, and you now have 2 Lascannons. Combat Squad them, and separate the Lascannon from the Sergeant and Meltagun carrier. Now you have your Heavy Weapon and 4 marines bunkered down in the back, while you have your Sgt and Meltagun with 3 marines in a transport ready to fight head on. I would also consider giving at least one of your Sgts a Power Fist.

eolis223 wrote:
Scout Squad: 85 points
3 Scouts with Snipers
1 Scout with Missile Launcher
1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper

Scout Squad: 75 points
4 scouts with snipers
1 sergeant with sniper

If you're only going to have 10 Scouts with one Heavy Weapon upgrade, then there's no reason why you'd have 2 separate units of 5. Make this one unit of 10, with 9 Sniper rifles and 1 missile Launcher. It'll save you 10 points.

eolis223 wrote:
Rhino1: 35 points

Razorback1: 75 points
-Twlin-linked Lascannon

Drop pod1: 55 points
-Deathwind Launcher

If you go with the Combat Squad idea, you might want to consider using a Razorback instead. They're only 5 points more than Rhinos, and come stock with TL Heavy Bolters. If you don't Combat Squad, then stick with the Rhino. Also, Deathwind Missile Launchers are rarely worth their 20 points. You can try it and see how it works for you, but more often than not, they aren't very effective, due to it's 12" range.

eolis223 wrote:
Dreadnought: 145 points
-Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Ironclad Dreadnought: 160 points
Close Combat Weapon w/Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
Transport Drop pod1

Nice choices for all 3 Dreadnoughts, but I would definitely give your first 2 Extra Armor. Ironclad is IMHO the best Dreadnought in the game. Highest AV against all and they come stock with Extra Armor. Take the 20 points from the Deathwind Missile Launcher and give the Ironclad 2 HK Missiles instead. They'll come in handy far more than your DML will.

eolis223 wrote:
Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Devastator Squad: 150 points
4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol

Max out each of these squads to the full 10 man unit. Reason being is because once they start taking fire, you'll have to allocate wounds to the Missile Launchers first. With 5 extra guys to soak up wounds, you'll have the best chances of keeping your ML carriers alive. Don't forget also, that the Sgt's Signum is usable once every turn. It'll give one guy a BS 5, so take advantage of it.

One other thing I'd like to touch on is that I noticed in previous lists, you had Terminators. If you were to keep the Terminators in the list, and give them a Cyclone Missile Launcher, that would certainly increase your number of shots to your "Shooty" list. Not only that, but then you'll have a unit that you can attach your Chapter Master and Librarian to, and have a unit that can march up and down the field and shoot every single weapon they want, regardless of Heavy or Assault weapons. Taking out one Dreadnought for that unit would certainly be well worth it, I think.

Let me know how the list works out for you, and good luck! Hope my advice helped.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

eolis223 wrote:
Dreadnought: 145 points
-Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher

Dreadnought: 125 points
-Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Ironclad Dreadnought: 160 points
Close Combat Weapon w/Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher, Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
Transport Drop pod1

Nice choices for all 3 Dreadnoughts, but I would definitely give your first 2 Extra Armor.

That is very bad advice. Spend 30 points so that your non-cc dreads can still move when stunned. Who cares if they can move, they can't fire anyways. Giving extra armor to dreadnoughts with no DCCW is a huge waste of points. Its even a luxury WITH a DCCW when you have points left over.

Orbital Bombardment can't be used if the model moves at all, Relentless or not.

It's not a heavy weapon, it just says that you can't move and shoot.

Monster Rain wrote:Orbital Bombardment can't be used if the model moves at all, Relentless or not.

It's not a heavy weapon, it just says that you can't move and shoot.

I'll have to check this out later myself. I don't use Orbital Bombardment regularly, but that's a good thing to know regardless. Thanks!

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I'll have to check this out later myself. I don't use Orbital Bombardment regularly, but that's a good thing to know regardless. Thanks!

I just double checked, he is correct. The wording is along the lines 'can be used provided he did not move during his previous movement phase'.

Dracos wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I'll have to check this out later myself. I don't use Orbital Bombardment regularly, but that's a good thing to know regardless. Thanks!

I just double checked, he is correct. The wording is along the lines 'can be used provided he did not move during his previous movement phase'.

Hmm... well, in that case, I guess it wouldn't matter if he was in Terminator armor then. However, I still think giving him that along with a Storm Shield would make him a tougher IC for your opponent to bring down.

Good luck!

eolis223 wrote:As for power fists on the Devastator sergeants, what's the point?

Looking over my post, I guess you could have misunderstood this. No Pfist for the dev sgt. I only meant to recommend Pfists for tactical sergeants, never devs. Sorry about that.

eolis223 wrote:Finally, why is the chaplain useless?

I never said he was uesless, just a SB on him. Again, I apologize for not making that clearer.


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eolis223 wrote:Drop pod1: -Deathwind Launcher

Minor point. Since DPs arrive moving at "cruising speed", the DW can't fire that turn. Eh, I don't see much purpose in them.

eolis223 wrote:Dreadnought: -Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought: -Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon

Minor point: Extra Armor might make the difference from sitting in a bad place (ie. No Cover) and being able to move behind something if it can't shoot.

eolis223 wrote:Devastator Squad: 4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
Devastator Squad: 4 marines w/ Missile Launchers
1 Sergeant w/chainsword and bolt pistol
Total: 1905 points

Those extra 95 points could be used to increase the size of the devs for survivability, say to 8 guys per squad. This was how big I would run them. Also, if you check the Dev entry, you'll see the sarge has a BP and Bolter. Keep the Bolter rather than the CS/BP combo. As you noted, what's the point of making a Dev Sgt. good at h2h? So, have him keep his bolter, for by turn 3 or so, even the bolters will have something to shoot at (if game is going well, then the enemy tanks are destroyed and only infantry are left to come at you in the latter part of the game.).

Edit: (After a second re-read) Ah, that's where this "Useless" advice came from: Joetaco!

Thanks, JT for the compliment, though I'm going to point out that the Pfist on the Dev *is* poor advice. And, chaplains are useful. It looks like the Chap was going to help the Honorguard be really effective. Sorry, Joetaco, but I disagree with you on those two points.


Kudoos for going against the grain and sticking with the Devastators.



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Dracos wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

eolis223 wrote:1

Nice choices for all 3 Dreadnoughts, but I would definitely give your first 2 Extra Armor.

That is very bad advice. Spend 30 points so that your non-cc dreads can still move when stunned. Who cares if they can move, they can't fire anyways. Giving extra armor to dreadnoughts with no DCCW is a huge waste of points. Its even a luxury WITH a DCCW when you have points left over.

What's wrong with getting behind cover, especially in 5e's environment?

Why are your dreads sitting out of cover in the first place. If its available, you should already be there.

Extra armor is going to be a crutch for bad play if you use it like that. Instead, learn to place them in cover when its available so you don't have to move there while you are shaken.

Additionally, normally its a good idea to use smoke launchers when you are shaken with a dread that is equipped for long range shooting. The extra armor will seldom ever see any use, and be essentially inconsequential with proper play anyways.

edit: The point is that although yes extra armor does help a little, it does not help 15 points worth. If it was 5 points, sure go for it. But its not a small upgrade, especially to be buying for multiple vehicles.