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Dakkarites,

So after much deliberation and consultation with the wisen council of elders (you know who you are) I've now squandered several hours of my day theorycrafting some tweaks to my new list. Rationale at the bottom of the list, with some questions (as always!)


2000 Point Army list "Mobile Warfare Doctirne"


1. HQ (172)

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Commander
Shas'O + Twin-linked Plasma Rifles + Missile Pod + Irridium Armor Plates +
Hard Wired Multi Tracker + Hard Wired Shield Drone x 2
= 172 Points


2. Troops (510)


Fire Caste Warriors
10 warriors + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife + Hard Wired w/2 Gun Drones
= 135

Fire Caste Warriors
10 warriors + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife + Hard Wired w/2 Gun Drones
= 135


Devilfish Transport
Multi-Tracker + Disruption Pods + Smart Missile System + Targeting Array
= 120

Devilfish Transport
Multi-Tracker + Disruption Pods + Smart Missile System + Targeting Array
= 120


3. Fast Attack (222)


Pathfinders
8 pathfinders + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
= 111

Pathfinders
8 pathfinders + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
= 111


4. Heavy Support (640)


Hammerhead
Burst Cannon x 2 + Railgun + Disruption Pods + Multi-tracker + Seeker Missile x 2
= 185

Hammerhead
Burst Cannon x 2 + Railgun + Disruption Pods + Multi-tracker + Seeker Missile x 2
= 185


Broadside Battlesuit Team
Multi-tracker + Team Leader + Bonding Knife + Hard Wired Target Lock + Hard Wired Shield Drone x 2
= 270

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's where things get tricky - My Elite Squads. The XV8 Crisis Battlesuits are the most versatile units we Tau can run with, and thus
I have to be very careful with how they are equiped to determine their role in the army. I plan to run 2 teams of 3.

I will try to display my thoughts in the most simplest methods possible. The variations fall into two aspects of the XV8 Team.

Aspect One: What weapons to give the teams.

Current possible loadouts are as follows:
Plasma Rifle build (either Plasma Rifle, Misslie Pod and Multi-Target *or* TwinLink Plasma Rifle and Targeting Array)
Burst Cannon build (either Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon and Multi-Target *or* TwinLink Burst Cannon and Targeting Array)

Basically the Plasma/Missiles means it can take out heavy infantry and light mech, the burst cannons/plasma can take out both light and heavy infantry. I'm unsure if I should ever run with Fusion blasters on these guys, seeing the range is so small on fusion blasters.

Aspect Two: Twinlinked Weapons + Targeting Arrays VS 2 weapon systems + multi-trackers.

As noted above, either I run the team with multi-trackers to fill two different roles with its 2 weapon systems or as a dedicated role.

Eitehr way, I will write below how it would look on the list. a) and b) are symbolic of the variations to the team leader.


5. Elites


XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team x 3 <aka the Multi-Target build>

a). Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Targeting Array + Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod
= 112

Shas'ui x 2 + Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod + Multi-tracker
= 124 (62 per unit)

Total cost for a.) = 236

b). Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Twin-linked Plasma Rifles + Missile Pod
= 112

Shas'ui x 2 + Plasma Rifle + Missile Pod + Multi-tracker
= 124 (62 per unit)

Total cost for b.) = 236

c). Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Plasma Rifle + Twin-Linked Burst Cannons
= 102

Shas'ui x 2 + Twin-linked Plasma Rifles + Targeting Array
= 130

Total cost for c.) = 232

d.) Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Plasma Rifle + Twin-Linked Burst Cannons
= 102

Shas'ui x 2 + Twin-linked Burst Cannons + Targeting Array
= 94

Total cost for d.) = 196


I'm sure there are other slight variations to the above 4 builds, such as modifying c.) and d.) to mimic their Shas'ui team's twin-linked weapons and targeting arrays.


Points total

a.) 2016
b.) 2016
c.) 2008
d.) 1936

If I take d.), i'd have 64 points left, enough to squeeze in a Piranha and a Fusion Blaster upgrade, pushing it to 2001 points.

Everything is more or less equipped well. I would add Target Locks to the Railheads.

The main issue is only two troop choices for such a large game, 2k. General rule of thumb says a troop choice per 500 points of a game.

I'd take out the added GunDs and Seeker Missiles. Shave the HQ down from 'O to 'El, add Target Array and lose the other bling. Then I would spend points on a 3rd troop choice, kroot or FWs. *Then* I'd feel comfortable playing the list.

Lastly, points limits are just that: Points Limits. In really friendly games a few points over the limit are okay, but for pick-up games, in my experience, the Limit is the Limit. Try to approach 2000 and stop before you go over it.

@Brothererekose

Thanks for the advice. SaintHazzard seems to think you're the beesknees when it comes to Tau army lists

As far as troop choices, I was under the impression that the Devilfish was listed as a troop choice in the codex, as it appears in that section of the army list. I too was considering taking a unit of Kroot to infiltrate in cover and generally provide some form of harrassment and cc threat.

It seems the opinions on Dakka are divided as to their usefulness. With no armor saves I'm guessing you park them in cover and just shoot, only moving to CC if a charge seems inevitable. I had designed this army to be competely mobile, as my thoughts were that while tau are on the move they are less likely to be bogged down in a protracted firefight and thus wiped out. Kroot *could* be an 'anchor' of sorts on the battlefield to draw enemy forces towards them, a 'bait and switch' tactic if you like for something more rapid, such as an XV8 team.


The other issue which im really looking for some advice is on the Xv8 suits themselves. I really am of two minds about how best to arm them. I know alot of people rave about the 'FireKnife' build with the ability to take on light and heavy infantry. I'm basically tossing up between plasma rifles, burst cannons or missile pods.

And as far as the Shas'O / Shas'El is concerned...25 points for 1 extra BS, attack, wound and leadership seems quite decent, opposed to taking a targeting array for 10 points and only getting the extra BS. I want him to be tough enough to take the heat on his own for several rounds, why I gave him the armor.

Points I think might be dropped from either trimming off 1 pathfinder from each team and reducing the number of Broadsides from 3 to 2.
The pathfinder reduction would put me under 2000 and the one less broadside would equal about 10 Kroot. Or I could trim the Seeker Missiles and play around with the numbers that way.

List is not legal. Your Pathfinders do not have their mandatory transports. Brothererekose has posted most of the rest that needs attention.

As far as the Devilfish, under their entry they are called dedicated transports.

I have a few ideas but will post them in a bit and only if you are unterested in seeing one of my old lists.


BTW, can you tell us what models you have for your Tau? Do you have Piranha?

focusedfire wrote:List is not legal. Your Pathfinders do not have their mandatory transports.

Heh. I didn't say anything about 'em, as they're equal to the number of PF units, so, really, the list *is* legal ....

iLLiTHiD wrote:@Brothererekose

Thanks for the advice. SaintHazzard seems to think you're the beesknees when it comes to Tau army lists

More like the Cat's Meow ... Eh, thanks.
FocusedFire and I often seem to be on the same page, so I'd heed his advice too.

iLLiTHiD wrote:It seems the opinions on Dakka are divided as to their usefulness.

Same on ATT and others. For every guy who complains about kroot, you have another swearing that you should take only 6 FWs and the rest of your troops as kroot.

Most armies seem to have one or two *really* useless units or items. SM-scout bikes. SW - the Lone Wolf. Eldar, currently, Swooping Hawks. For tau, its the 'vre upgrades and gun drones. *Yes* GDs can be good cheap screens. However, in 4e, when any unit on the FoC could score, they were a good, really cheap, Deep Strike scorer, and if I had an odd 50 or so points that I couldn't make into another XV8, I'd stick in a small squadron of GDs that would flit about on the flank ... sometimes even doing the enemy some harm!

I hear that Swooping Hawks were once great, 3e.

iLLiTHiD wrote:
The other issue which im really looking for some advice is on the Xv8 suits themselves. I really am of two minds about how best to arm them. I know alot of people rave about the 'FireKnife' build with the ability to take on light and heavy infantry. I'm basically tossing up between plasma rifles, burst cannons or missile pods.

At some point I stopped wondering if I should order steak or lobster. Get both.

Run a FK unit and run a FireStorm (BC/MP/MT) unit. See which does better for you, for the opponent you play, for the terrain. I field FSs more often, as 5e Cover Saves hamper the PlasmaRilfe's high AP, and thus go with volume.

iLLiTHiD wrote:And as far as the Shas'O / Shas'El is concerned...25 points for 1 extra BS, attack, wound and leadership seems quite decent, opposed to taking a targeting array for 10 points and only getting the extra BS. I want him to be tough enough to take the heat on his own for several rounds, why I gave him the armor.

I tend to be able to hide my cowardly little 'El, and thus not needing a tough, high wound IC. Still, if the 'O works for you, keep him.

iLLiTHiD wrote: Points I think might be dropped from either trimming off 1 pathfinder from each team and reducing the number of Broadsides from 3 to 2.
The pathfinder reduction would put me under 2000 and the one less broadside would equal about 10 Kroot. Or I could trim the Seeker Missiles and play around with the numbers that way.

Trimming Seekers is always something I advocate. I think they're a waste of points, considering it's one shot, whereas those points could've been spent on flechettes, which keep giving.

Brothererekose wrote:

focusedfire wrote:List is not legal. Your Pathfinders do not have their mandatory transports.

Heh. I didn't say anything about 'em, as they're equal to the number of PF units, so, really, the list *is* legal ....

Was Strictly speaking from the way it is written. At a tourney the list would be illeagal and it is best to break bad list habits early. Wouldn't you agree?

Brothererekose wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote:@Brothererekose

Thanks for the advice. SaintHazzard seems to think you're the beesknees when it comes to Tau army lists

More like the Cat's Meow ... Eh, thanks.
FocusedFire and I often seem to be on the same page, so I'd heed his advice too.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

@Illithid- I have a few eccentricities about the list advice I give. One of them is that it is rare for me to tell someone what list to run or even which units. Instead, I usually try to give the poster asking the questions as many options as possible and then encourage them to find their own personal playstyle.

Brothererekose wrote:

iLLiTHiD wrote: Points I think might be dropped from either trimming off 1 pathfinder from each team and reducing the number of Broadsides from 3 to 2.
The pathfinder reduction would put me under 2000 and the one less broadside would equal about 10 Kroot. Or I could trim the Seeker Missiles and play around with the numbers that way.

Trimming Seekers is always something I advocate. I think they're a waste of points, considering it's one shot, whereas those points could've been spent on flechettes, which keep giving.

This is where Brothererekose and I will disagree. When I first started playing Tau, I had the same feeling about the Seeker missiles. But my curiosity as to how I could make various units and equipment work lead me to finding one way that they do work. It is for a specific tactic that mounts the seekers on Pirahna and has the Squadron move flat out for a side to rear armour shot. This allows for the Pirahna to be used agressively and to spread the board as opposed to just being line blockers. Now this tactic is not for everyone, it is just another option.
Otherwise, Seekers are not of much use. IMO, They require a highly mobile platform in order to be effective.

focusedfire wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:

focusedfire wrote:List is not legal. Your Pathfinders do not have their mandatory transports.

Heh. I didn't say anything about 'em, as they're equal to the number of PF units, so, really, the list *is* legal ....

Was Strictly speaking from the way it is written. At a tourney the list would be illeagal and it is best to break bad list habits early. Wouldn't you agree?

Ayup.

Brothererekose wrote:Trimming Seekers is always something I advocate. I think they're a waste of points, considering it's one shot, whereas those points could've been spent on flechettes, which keep giving.

focusedfire wrote:This is where Brothererekose and I will disagree. When I first started playing Tau, I had the same feeling about the Seeker missiles. But my curiosity as to how I could make various units and equipment work lead me to finding one way that they do work. It is for a specific tactic that mounts the seekers on Pirahna and has the Squadron move flat out for a side to rear armour shot. This allows for the Pirahna to be used agressively and to spread the board as opposed to just being line blockers. Now this tactic is not for everyone, it is just another option.
Otherwise, Seekers are not of much use. IMO, They require a highly mobile platform in order to be effective.

I'll agree that this is a solid tactic. However, since I don't own piranha models, the Olive colored text applies, from My-Humble-Perspective.

@forcused fire

I have a few ideas but will post them in a bit and only if you are unterested in seeing one of my old lists.

BTW, can you tell us what models you have for your Tau? Do you have Piranha?

Currently I only have brought the codex, as I prefer to work out my list before buying up large numbers of models (made that mistake back when I played empire >_< )

Also, would love to see your new and old ideas...the more information and perspectives I can read, the better. Im chewing through as much debate and ideas as possible. FEED ME! (please)


@Brothererekose,

For every guy who complains about kroot, you have another swearing that you should take only 6 FWs and the rest of your troops as kroot.

I guess its just a case of running some games without them and see how I go. If i find im getting chased down too easily, I might drop a broadside or something and pick up 10 Kroot, see if they can make a difference. For now I'll try writing a list without them, but they are not written off completely yet.

At some point I stopped wondering if I should order steak or lobster. Get both.

Run a FK unit and run a FireStorm (BC/MP/MT) unit. See which does better for you, for the opponent you play, for the terrain. I field FSs more often, as 5e Cover Saves hamper the PlasmaRilfe's high AP, and thus go with volume.

Good o' Surf and Turf eh? Made me lol

I was leaning towards BCs too, they seem more anti-infantry, which is what I needed their job to be in the list. The Plasma looks nice on paper but from what I've read, Warhammerr 40K is now called 'Warhammer Cover K' due to the large number of terrain out there .
I'll go against the TA for the missile pods...they are too useful to not have. I can see how their great range means they can normally pop a shot off in most situations.

I tend to be able to hide my cowardly little 'El, and thus not needing a tough, high wound IC. Still, if the 'O works for you, keep him.

I guess its my WHFB history kicking in, to be reluctant to leave any General unguarded. Old habits die hard, but if I really am strapped for 15 points or so I guess I can reduce him to an 'El.

@Illithid- I have a few eccentricities about the list advice I give. One of them is that it is rare for me to tell someone what list to run or even which units. Instead, I usually try to give the poster asking the questions as many options as possible and then encourage them to find their own personal playstyle.

I totally agree. The last thing I wish is to be 'spoonfed'; as a wargamer cannot really learn the game without having to think himself about how they will execute their army's strategy if they had absolutely no hand in their creation. Equally true, however, it is foolish for a new general to ignore the advice of 'wise council' (hint: thats you guys )

I have tried to approach my posts on this community in such a way, and my lists seem to have sparked some lively debate amongst the community members as well. Which is great because I am keenly aware that I dont wish to just 'sponge' tactics off you then rat off, rather, to also help contribute in some way towards the community debate on the game, and thus, increase the depth, expertise and enjoyment for all

In regards to the seeker missiles, I can see how, if I were to field them, it would be much better on a mobile unit rather then the Hammerheads. I was fearful for putting them on somethng light in the risk of them being destroyed before being able to fire..but you have to take some risks to win games and thats one of them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was taking a shower (yes Dakkarites, I do look after my hygene, no you may *not* have pictures of said cleansing) and I had this great idea hit me...

Prehaps, in keeping with the theme of mobile warfare, the broadsides seem abit out of place. They cannot really move too quickly, and thus whilst their firepower is impressive, I could always substitute their points for, as discussed above, for an impressive size of Kroots and some Piranhas! The seeker missiles/fusion blasters could make up for the lost punch that the Broadsides offer, yet the unit would be far more mobile and versatile as a result. After all, 16 Pathfinders with their markerlights need to be used for something!

I will work on this now, and post my findings soon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so here is the new list, with adjustments. Namely, I removed the Broadsides, replaced with 2 teams of 12 kroot, and a team of 2 Piranha.


2000 Point Army list "Mobile Warfare Doctirne"


1. HQ (172)

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Commander
Shas'O + Twin-linked Plasma Rifles + Missile Pod + Irridium Armor Plates +
Hard Wired Multi Tracker + Hard Wired Shield Drone x 2
= 172 Points


2. Troops (678)


Fire Caste Warriors
10 warriors + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife + Hard Wired w/2 Gun Drones
= 135

Fire Caste Warriors
10 warriors + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife + Hard Wired w/2 Gun Drones
= 135


Kroot Warriors x 12
= 84

Kroot Warriors x 12
= 84


Devilfish Transport (From Pathfinders, re-purposed for Fire Warrior transport)
Multi-Tracker + Disruption Pods + Smart Missile System + Targeting Array
= 120

Devilfish Transport (From Pathfinders, re-purposed for Fire Warrior transport)
Multi-Tracker + Disruption Pods + Smart Missile System + Targeting Array
= 120


3. Fast Attack (422)

Pathfinders
8 pathfinders + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
= 111

Pathfinders
8 pathfinders + Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
= 111


Piranah team x 2

Fusion blaster + Disruption Pod + Flechette discharger + Seeker missiles x 2
=200

4. Heavy Support (340)


Hammerhead
Burst Cannon x 2 + Railgun + Disruption Pods + Multi-tracker + Target Lock
= 170

Hammerhead
Burst Cannon x 2 + Railgun + Disruption Pods + Multi-tracker + Target Lock
= 170



5. Elites (388)


Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Twin-Linked Burst Cannons + Missile Pod
= 94 points

Shas'ui x 2 + Burst Cannon + Missile Pod + Multi-Target
= 100

Total cost for unit = 194


Team Leader + Bonding Knife + HW Shield Drones + HW Multi-Target
+ Twin-Linked Burst Cannons + Missile Pod
= 94 points

Shas'ui x 2 + Burst Cannon + Missile Pod + Multi-Target
= 100

Total cost for unit = 194


Grand total for army = 2000 exactly (unless my maths failed me today)



The piranha now serve as mobile tank hunters, d'pods to protect them while they fire ze missiles on the side armor as focusfire suggested. they then close in for the kill with fusion blasters, and the flechettes make sure any team trying to take them down in CC will pay dearly.

Two teams of 12 kroot i felt was enough numbers to pose a threat, so split the numbers and spread them. They can serve either as harrassment/counter infiltrator or as a 'bait' unit for the inexperienced opponent.

Only thing im now now sure of is the loadout of the HQ. Was considering giving him the airburster instead of twin plasma

iLLiTHiD wrote:Only thing im now now sure of is the loadout of the HQ. Was considering giving him the airburster instead of twin plasma

This looks pretty good in general. Buy it. Play it. Play it.

I'm still working out the exact battleplan, but it goes something like this...

The idea is the pathfinders and kroot deploy forward on the map, ideally in cover. The pathfinders will no doubt draw fiire as they are a high priority target. The kroot are designed to offer protection detail and the ability to flank infantry if they are ignored.

THe XV Battlesuit teams role are hit-and-run anti-infantry, with long and medium range capacity...they only have BC and MP, so not sure how they will measure up against the SMEQ. Might need to rework them into FireKnife builds.

The Pirahnas are to play the tank hunter role, coming on the board as reserves. Seeker missiles and FB should see their job done, and some fletchette goodness as a nasty suprise for the inevitable charge they will recieve doing their job. Any survivors will do some board capturing or flanking roles.

Hammer heads - long range fire support / damage soak to keep too much fire away from the d'fish/bsuits. Entertaining the idea of switching away from Railgun to Ion...anyone able to break down the merits of such a move?

D'fish + fire warriors are for objective capture and hold ground - and the d'fuish special rule gives the option of Deep Striking the XV's abit more viability.


Give me your thoughts on this possible strategy

So I've read some more community discussions and ive seen several key issues with my lst.


1. Kroot and FireWarriors : It appears that if one is to run a more mechanised Tau army, FireWarriors are mostly kept inside D'fish, only rarely to exit it to capture an objective, ideally on turn +5.

If I were to scale back my FW teams, I could redirect the points into some Kroot Hounds (Which I believe are superior to normal Kroot once you pass the required 10 Kroot. If I am wrong please correct me). This would expand their role from the more limited 'pillbox' defense of the Pathfinders, to more of a potential flanking threat with some extra CC attacks.


2. The loadout of the Pirahnas. Equiping them with Seeker missiles seems somewhat risky - a 1 shot weapon on a skimmer that is more prone to being taken out. I could strip those missiles off the pirahnas and reinvest either
a) changing the suits to eitehr FBs or PR
b) Giving the d'fish or hammerheads fletchettes