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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What happens with indirect fire and squadrons of artillery (batteries)? This image depicts an artillery squadron and a target rhino group (of 3 distinct units).



In the above example, initially examining the rhino trio at the right most, what would happen if the artillery player set the template there? (Assuming indirect barrage fire, also assuming the target spot was in range and greater than minimum).

What would happen in the other 3 positions, how many barrages would fire in each case?

Where does the battery come from for the first ranging shot?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





San Francisco

Vehicle shooting restrictions are entirely based on line of sight on a per-weapon basis. Since indirect ordinance doesn't need line of sight, the battery can fire at any of the targets in your hypothetical.

However, when shooting at targets outside the 45 degree hull weapon LOS, I think it's hard to claim that you can subtract your Ballistic Skill from the scatter roll. While the vehicles can certainly see the Rhinos, their weapons cannot.

EDIT: As to the second part of your question, the "ranging shot" comes from whatever vehicle in the battery is closest to the target. In your illustration, it would appear that the artillery would be able to subtract their ballistic skill to shoot at any Rhino group save for the far right group, since the closest artillery vehicle has LOS in three of the four shots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 22:29:49


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So... what do you think happens then? (Assuming it was being fired indirectly out of LOS).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/02 22:38:04


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





San Francisco

Augustus wrote:So... what do you think happens then? (Assuming it was being fired indirectly out of LOS).

If you shot at the Rhino out of LOS? The battery would still fire, but would scatter the full distance rolled, instead of subtracting the BS value. Then the scatter dice (only) would be rolled twice from the final position of the first template, exactly like any other multiple barrage situation. (Main book, page 32.)

Since barrage doesn't require LOS, you will always fire with all barrage weapons in a battery, provided you're within the maximum and minimum range of all the weapons.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/08/03 04:03:42


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Indirect barrage doesn't require LOS, but there's no reason to think it bypasses firing arcs.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So what do you think that means for the rightmost shot?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





San Francisco

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Indirect barrage doesn't require LOS, but there's no reason to think it bypasses firing arcs.

Check out pages 58-59 of the main book. "Firing arcs" as a concept in 40k exist only as a shorthand for "LOS arcs." It's one of the many weird quirks of the 40k rules.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut






Augustus wrote:So what do you think that means for the rightmost shot?

Wait, no, I don't understand the piture I think..or you're shooting at something not in your LOS :(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/03 03:47:00


"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

To my mind, the rightmost shot would be illegal, as hull-mounted weapons can only fire in a 45 degree arc (which is a distinct difference to other types of vehicle weapon mounts, which have defined Line of Sight only, rather than having a specified arc in which they can fire). So, as none of the vehicles have that spot within their fire arc, none of them can target it.

For the others, the rules don't tell us what to do if a battery does not all have targets within their fire arc. Probably because there weren't any vehicle squadrons with Barrage weapons when the rulebook was written.

I would work it out on a shot-by-shot basis. Drop the first blast marker, roll the scatter for the second, and if the spot in which the second shot would land is within the fire arc of at least one of the other squadron members, place that marker and move on to the next.

That's just straight out of my head, though, since, as I said, the rules don't cover it.


The alternative way of playing it would be to go with the other generally offered interpretation, which is that the removal of a need for LOS for Barrage weapons also over-rides the fire arc of the hull mount... in which case all 4 of the shots you have shown are fair game.

 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






4 things:

1) your Diagram is flawed from the Start; you are granting the guns a 90* Fire arc, they only have a 45. Diagram is on Page 59 showing that the Hull mounted Weapons have a 45* total arc, not 45 to either side.

2)Dave; while the First paragraph makes it a little fuzzy as to whether a Barrage weapon can Fire in effectively a 360* arc, the actual bullet Points are very Clear on the subject. The second bullet point states that the Hull mounted Weapon can Fire in a 45* Arc, not that it has a 45* LOS. Therefore the Target of a Hull mounted Barrage weapon must be within that 45* arc, or the Shot will miss entirely as it is effectively "out of Range".

3) Chris the OP is talking about Barrage weapons so LOS doe not enter into the equation.

4) OP: Only the Leftmost cluster is even in the three Basilisk's Fire Arc, the Center-left cluster can be fired at by only the Right most Basilisk and the Other 2 Clusters are completely out of the Fire Arc therefor are not valid targets. As far as the First Ranging Shot goes, it only matters for the Left-most Cluster(the other 2 Basilisks cannot even fire at any other Cluster) and any tank can fire that ranging Shot.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Kommissar Kel wrote:1) your Diagram is flawed from the Start; you are granting the guns a 90* Fire arc, they only have a 45. Diagram is on Page 59 showing that the Hull mounted Weapons have a 45* total arc, not 45 to either side.


Well spotted...

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





insaniak wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:1) your Diagram is flawed from the Start; you are granting the guns a 90* Fire arc, they only have a 45. Diagram is on Page 59 showing that the Hull mounted Weapons have a 45* total arc, not 45 to either side.


Well spotted...


Indeed, I noticed that as well, when reading the rule last night. I can change it.

The 45 degree arc being 50% narrower really exacerbates the issue, if the shots miss if out of arc, and the arc is only 45, then the vehicles would have to turn to barrage targets. This could have a direct effect on the game because those vehicles might have to expose their side armor to do so, and possibly even rear as well.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Well your diagram does show the Facing arcs to the rhinos(or very nearly the correct facing arcs) so depending on the placement of other units in relation to the Rhino clusters, when turning to Face the Rhinos to get them into the correct fire Arc, you will also be placing them into your front arc.

Also just to Note pivoting in the movement phase to bring your weapons to bear does not count as moving for firing purposes(i.e. you can still fire odrnance barrage, or all weapons, and you are still auto-hit in the assault phase).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Right, doesn't count as moving, tha'ts important, this brings up another issue for order of shots, what if some of the vehicles are in arc and others are not.

What happens when shots deviate out of the fire arc of the battery?

Should players keep track of which member of a battery is firing each shot?

More diagrams for these cases are coming as edits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/03 18:31:38


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Target outside of the Arc equates to an inability to fire at all(or at least at that target).

Deviation can cause a shot to fall outside the Arc without a problem, the Shot would land where the deviation determines, and would effect any models under the Blast Marker at that point. the only way that deviation invalidates a shot is when that shot falls off the board. barrages follow Blast rules and the Blast rules allow for deviation outside of Range and LOS(and these 2 combined would include Firing arc, which is effectively both range and LOS).

You would not really need to keep track of which tank is firing which shot unless the weapon has some sort of limited ammunition rule(like the manticore; even though it cannot be squadroned).


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
 
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