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Just wondering what the thoughts were on using Sniper Rifles for the vets in the Command squad. I know plasma/melta seems to be the usual choice, but a 3 ft range with Sniper for 5 pts a pop seems like a pretty good deal...

Looking to maybe put it into a Vendetta/Vet based IG.

It really boils down to I have a bunch of Catchan Sniper models I really, really want to use. I figure I'll eventually use them as "counts as" ratlings, but noticed that they might be a good deal in a command squad.

I use ratlings who are basicly the same thing as spiper vets but in more numbers(they have the same BS4). I would recamend just to use ratlings because a sniper CCS is 70pts for 4 snipers, were for 70pts you could have 7 ratling snipers

Right, but I have to have a HQ unit no matter what. Was just wondering if the Sniper Rifle was a viable choice or if there was some compelling reason to take a melta/plasma/flamer instead?

people go melta/plasma in command squads for the BS4. thats the only reason I can think of

well, that and sniper rifles are kinda lame unless youre trying to make mcs take saves ... shoot those 4 sniper rifles at some death company and see what happens, now rapid fire 3 plasma guns and pop the ccommanders plaspistol at them (medi pack so no 4 plas).

Snipers just aren't a terribly good weapon most of the time. Even for the same points I'd prefer to use grenade launchers.

yeah, sniper rifles are a waste of a good special weapon slot that could be used on melta or plasma instead.

Sniper Rifles only belong on Ratlings.

for one, they are heavy Weapons so your squad is to be static.

For 2, Ratlings are Cheap. you are paying 70 points for a Company Command squad with 4 Rifles; that same 70 points will give you 7 Ratlings(all with Sniper rifle, nearly doubling your rifles) that are of the Same BS, Smaller models(for Cover Saves/LOS hiding), and Come with free Infiltrate and stealth.

As guard Players we have The Best Sniper units(almost tied with Eldar Ranger/Pathfinders). Rangers/Pathfinders are Nearly twice/2.5X more expensive than Ratlings, and Do Not have Infiltrate, but Pathfinders can get 2+ cover saves and Scouts, and Both get AP1 on a to-hit of 6(5 or 6 on Pathfinders).

Sniper rifles are pretty terrible in this edition as it is, so you really need a bunch of them if you want any hope of success. So leave them to the ratlings, who are much cheaper for the job. Or just leave them.

Sniper CCSs (or static CCSs in general, really) are pretty terribad, because you may frequently find yourself out of order range or lacking LOS to your Bring it Down or On My Target targets.

10 ratlings get like...1 kill on a tac marine squad. I hate sniper rifles.

:-) Have to admit, I've tried a few... It was another one of those things I wanted to work, but really I must have been spoiled by Pathfinders, but they did pretty much nothing except provide a few bodies for the squad... I almost always wished I had a Plasma rifle or GL...

I think for once i will just say that sniper rifles should not be used in this edition, either that or make them 2 pnt instead of 5, strength X is nice but uts still 4+ to wound and then you've got to hit first.

if they wounded on a 2+ or even 3+ they would be worth it, or if they made it AP4 it might make it sorta-semi-possibly effective.....


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I realy want them to be good but they just arent viable even in friendly games because there not even slightly fun when they fail so often

What do you guys think about them in a dakkabunker, a chim with multilaser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber? Then you'd be rocking 13 shots at 36"? Keeps the CCS cheap, and has the range for a stay-at-home squad.

murdog wrote:What do you guys think about them in a dakkabunker, a chim with multilaser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber? Then you'd be rocking 13 shots at 36"? Keeps the CCS cheap, and has the range for a stay-at-home squad.

1. Sniper rifles are crap. It doesn't matter if you add chocolate to them, they are still bad.
2. Sniper rifles in CCS are particularly crap, since you're trading BS4 special weapons for them.
3. Chimeras set up for dakka are inefficient. Their shots are weak and low-accuracy. Chimeras work far better in the ML/HF set-up, using the main gun for transports, and the heavy flamer for the occupants (as a caveat, having one or two of these isn't bad if you like to hold objectives with one or two cheap infantry squads)
4. The whole idea of a static CCS is generally terrible. I've noticed that people tend to forget about 9 times out of 10 that the squad receiving the order AND the commander issuing it both need to be able to see the target in order to use Bring it Down! or On My Target! Then you remind them of it, and they are all pissed that their 300-point bunkered-in camo HQ is practically useless for its main purpose.

Sure, but the cost is prohibitive.

On the one hand, you're spending roughly 140 points for...? I guess if you took the chimera with 2x HB+stubber and the CCS had an HB and 2 sniper rifles you could kill a lot of light infantry out in the open, but for those same points, you could take a hellhound or a pair of griffons, which will do this same job better.

On the other hand, you have to pay the cost of keeping your command chimera stationary to shoot heavy weapons while the rest of your chimeras drive out of orders/standard reroll range. For it's meager killing power, I don't see it worth this strategic cost.

Terminus wrote:
1. Sniper rifles are crap. It doesn't matter if you add chocolate to them, they are still bad.
2. Sniper rifles in CCS are particularly crap, since you're trading BS4 special weapons for them.
3. Chimeras set up for dakka are inefficient. Their shots are weak and low-accuracy. Chimeras work far better in the ML/HF set-up, using the main gun for transports, and the heavy flamer for the occupants (as a caveat, having one or two of these isn't bad if you like to hold objectives with one or two cheap infantry squads)
4. The whole idea of a static CCS is generally terrible. I've noticed that people tend to forget about 9 times out of 10 that the squad receiving the order AND the commander issuing it both need to be able to see the target in order to use Bring it Down! or On My Target! Then you remind them of it, and they are all pissed that their 300-point bunkered-in camo HQ is practically useless for its main purpose.

1. They are 5 points.
2. They are 5 points.
3. They are inefficient, or they aren't bad. Which is it? Aren't bad only if they're scoring? What if they're supporting scoring units?
4. In your opinion the idea of a static CCS is terrible. In my opinion I take one every battle. We can debate the pros/cons if you like. If the commander can shoot out of the chimera, then he can see out of the chimera, no? So how is it that he can't see the target? And who builds 300 point HQ's, let alone 300pt static HQ's? How is it ever going to be 300 pts when 4 of them have sniper rifles!?!? You're beating up a scarecrow, big T.




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Ailaros wrote:Sure, but the cost is prohibitive.

On the one hand, you're spending roughly 140 points for...? I guess if you took the chimera with 2x HB+stubber and the CCS had an HB and 2 sniper rifles you could kill a lot of light infantry out in the open, but for those same points, you could take a hellhound or a pair of griffons, which will do this same job better.

On the other hand, you have to pay the cost of keeping your command chimera stationary to shoot heavy weapons while the rest of your chimeras drive out of orders/standard reroll range. For it's meager killing power, I don't see it worth this strategic cost.

You're missing and/or making some assumptions though, ros. On the one hand, maybe I've already got a hellhound or pair of griffons, or my heavy support/fast attack slots are full. On the other hand, I've already decided to 'pay the cost' of staying at home - perhaps because I have units that aren't 'driving out of orders/standard reroll range', and so imo the benefits outweigh the costs. I've got the rest of my army to take plenty of high-strength weaponry, I'm more interested in good leadership from the CCS. Just my opinion, and I'm not saying that the standard plasma or meltawagon setup isn't powerful, or that it doesn't work great for some (many) commanders and some (many) lists. Definitely more powerful than sniper rifles, but that firepower can be had elsewhere in the list, whereas orders/regimental standard cannot.




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I'm not arguing sniper rifles are great, or ideal, or should be put in the CCS. I'm just saying I can see it being of value for some lists. I'm not expecting agreement

Terminus is correct. A CCS needs to move to be effective as an orders giver in an infantry army and you probably need all the melta and plasma bearing bodies you can get in a Veteran list.
Besides 4 sniper rifles cuts down on bodies for vox caster and Regimental Standard, things very useful in an all infantry list

Kommissar Kel wrote: and Both get AP1 on a to-hit of 6(5 or 6 on Pathfinders).

Hmm? a ratling will rend on a 6 to wound, pathfinders will be ap1 on a 5-6 to hit, and rend on a 6 to wound ....

murdog wrote:
1. They are 5 points.
2. They are 5 points.

They are not worth 5 point, I wouldn't even take them if they were free. They carry an extremely heavy opportunity cost of giving up worthwhile BS4 special weapons.

3. They are inefficient, or they aren't bad. Which is it? Aren't bad only if they're scoring? What if they're supporting scoring units?

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Some people like to park one or two infantry squads on objectives and just leave them there. I don't particularly care for that tactic, but if you're just going to leave a chimera sitting in one spot the heavy bolter option is not an absolutely horrible option. The heavy flamer is still better (it takes at least three turns of heavy bolter fire to match one shot from a heavy flamer).

4. In your opinion the idea of a static CCS is terrible. In my opinion I take one every battle. We can debate the pros/cons if you like. If the commander can shoot out of the chimera, then he can see out of the chimera, no? So how is it that he can't see the target?

The point of the CCS is some combination of the following three roles: provide orders, provide leadership, provide BS4 special weapons. A static CCS can't issue the best orders because both they AND the unit being ordered must see the enemy, if you ever play any games bigger than 1000 points on more than just a blank terrain-less table, you should know that the field can often get cluttered and complicate LOS. If you can't reposition, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you are just hanging out in your deployment zone, your forward elements can also quickly outpace both your order and banner range.

And you're giving up all that for what? So you can average less than half a wound against most targets? Awesome.

I'm not expecting agreement

So basically even you recognize the idea is terrible and the only reason you're defending it with such hostility is to troll people? Well done.

Terminus wrote:I wouldn't even take them if they were free.

This.

murdog wrote: On the one hand, maybe I've already got a hellhound or pair of griffons

Well, then you've got anti light infantry covered then. Not only do you not need more, but you don't need more that comes at a poor exchange rate.

murdog wrote: On the other hand, I've already decided to 'pay the cost' of staying at home - perhaps because I have units that aren't 'driving out of orders/standard reroll range'

In which case you're running a static gunline, something which a few sniper rifles won't save you from.

If psychology meant anything in 40k then pinning would be actually scary..

But its not, so they arent.. and snipers will continue to be horrible

When I see an IG player with snipers I just assume hes new to the game since the models do LOOK cool

Terminus wrote:

murdog wrote:I'm not expecting agreement

So basically even you recognize the idea is terrible and the only reason you're defending it with such hostility is to troll people? Well done.

Basically you are not paying attention to what I'm saying, and are putting words in my mouth. I never said the idea is terrible, in fact I was trying to express my opinion that the unit in question could fit with some lists, and that I don't dismiss them out of hand as 'crap'. What I meant by not expecting agreement is that I can agree to disagree, and having read through the posts am fully aware of the majority opinion. I am allowed to disagree with you, I hope. Since you're the one calling me names because I disagree, who is acting like a hostile troll? Please point out where my posts got hostile, that is definitely not my intention - I apologize if you interpreted anything as such. I'm trying to have a discussion about a trivial game, after all, and dared to challenge your arguments. Your posts often contain good and reasoned analysis, but also alot of bombast and insult. If you're like this talking about 40K, what do you do when someone disagrees with you in real life about something important? I'm starting to think that's an actual photo of you, and you really are that grumpy all the time. Just jokin. C'mon man, lighten up - none of this really matters.


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Ailaros wrote: In which case you're running a static gunline, something which a few sniper rifles won't save you from.

If you think that gunlines have to be static the whole game, or need saving for some reason.

murdog wrote:I'm starting to think that's an actual photo of you

That would be totally awesome.

none of this really matters

THE INTERWEBZ R SEERIUS BUZINESS!

Maybe I'm just taking you too seriously.

I was thinking about it - 300pt command - your sarcasm is just outrageous and I didn't get it

I take 2 plasma and 2 snipers in case of gets hot and it's cheaper than trying to throw pts in for a medic. Just a little redundancy and I can use that 10 points that seems to have no use.