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Got a 1750 event coming up, and decided to go with a Troop-heavy biker list. Here's what I'm aiming at:

HQ
Captain
- bike
- artificer armor
- relic blade

Command Squad
- plasmaguns, x4
- basic Apothecary
- Razorback w/ TLPG, LC

TROOPS
Bikes 1, 5 men
- sergeant w/powerfist

Bikes 2, 6 men
- sergeant w/ plasma pistol
- plasmaguns, x2

Bikes 3, 6 men
- sergeant w/ power weapon, meltabombs
- meltaguns, x2

Tactical 1, 10 men
- flamer, lascannon
- sergeant w/ powerfist
- Rhino

Tactical 2, 10 men
- flamer, multimelta
- sergeant w/ power weapon
- Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Attack Bike Squadron, 2 bikes
- multimeltas, x2

Landspeeder Squadron, 2 speeders
- Typhooon launchers, x2


It's basically a mix of bikers and mechanized troopers. 5-7 scoring units, based on whether I combat squad, or not. Plenty of melta, a couple lascannons, and a single volley of missiles per turn. Half a boatload of plasma, more than half of which has FNP.
I like the list in general, and it'll be my first time fielding Typhoons. It'll also be my first time using a MSU strategy with bikers, instead of two large 8-man-plus-attack-bike squads.

One thing I'm unsure of is the Command Squad. 250 points for that unit, counting the Razorback. For that price, I can get a full 10-man Assault Squad, that can keep up with the bikers, and packs an additional powerfist and two flamers, plus 15 spare points I can use for hellfires on the Captain, and a meltabombon the power weapon tactical sergeant.
If I drop the Command Squad, I lose a tank, and half my plasma. The Command Squad will likely not be deployed IN the Razor, except in DoW missions. I'd prefer to plop them in heavy cover and smack the hell out of MEQ/TEQ with the plasmaguns.

Ideas? Tips? Suggestions?

IMO the point of MSU is packing as many speciel weapons as possible.
Never ever skip the AB, for the same cost as two bikes you get a bike that fires a relentless MM and a twinlinked bolter as opposed to two twin linked bolters. The AB can take a wound before it gets less efficient.

I would find 90pts so you can put the command squad on bikes. 4 Relentless PGs is pretty damn neat.

You also have PFs on alot of units, those pts could be spent on more useful stuff.

Captain is decent. I prefer the Storm Shield, but AArmor is ok as well.
Command squad, it looks ok as a sort supporting counter shooter for the mech element.
Just kinda weird.

Bike with just fist: not good. The point of bikers is special weapon delivery. Ranged options are first. A 5 model powerfist is not very ‘hidden’ which is the whole point of the fist really.

Second Bike Squad: the plasma pistol is IMO a poor option. He is expensive and he is still stuck at no bonus attacks. A Combi-plasma would do you better because at the 12” range you will likely only get one shot.
Plasma guns are ok as a more stand-off unit.

Third bikers:
Power weapon, it’s a sad upgrade because you pay the full prices for only half the benefits, remember he has no offhand weapon so no bonus attack. Melta guns are good.

For the bikers, there is an alarming lack of attack bikes. They are one of the most cost effective options…and IMO MAKE the biker army, rather than just the lame bikers honestly.

Tactical squads look meh. I don’t think the fist is needed.
Attack bike squadrons look ok, but the main bikers need them more at this moment.
Typhoons are ok.

It’s ok to do MSU, but without the attack bikes, I don’t think you will have that great results.

Assault squads are not the answer. I think you need more FA support and more attack bike really. If that isn’t enough then Mortis Dreads for the ranged cover fire.

Thanks guys.
There are indeed some odd choices made, based on available models in my collection. I'm furiously painting every night just to have the two Typhoons ready for the 15th, as well as the plasma pistol biker sergeant.

I currently only have those four special weapon bikers available. Would you recommend switching back to a formation of two 8-man squads, with the attack bikes shoved back into them, instead of squadroned out? Do I go for a heavy bolter attack bike on the plasma group in that case, or heavy bolter? I typically run heavy bolter alongside my plasma squad.

A revised bike options would be:

Bikes 1, 8 bikes
- sergeant w/ power weapon+meltabombs
- plasmaguns, x2
- heavy bolter attack bike

Bikes 2, 8 bikes
- sergeant w/ powerfist
- meltaguns, x2
- multimelta attack bike

I can still do MSU with these guys, via combat squadding, though not as effectively.

I do have four different Dreads to choose from. Three standard bodies, and one Ironclad. NO PODS though. I normally run a pair of Dreads as support to my tactical+biker troops core, but was trying to get away from it this time around. I have every arm option available, magnetized, minus autocannons. I do have some unpainted Chaos autocannon arms in my bitz box that I could have painted in a day or two, but none of them are usable on the left arm. So, no Rifledreads for me. best I could do is mount something else alongside the autocannons, like a missile launcher. Poor man's Rifledread?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick note: I could very likely get a combi-plasma biker sergeant made and painted to accompany the plasma biker squad in time. Plenty of combi-plasmas in my bitz box.

Well, IMO, the operational range of the Plasma gun and the Multi-melta on bikes make them a great pair becuase they are both 24" range.

I would not be saying larger squads are better for everyone, but if you don't maximize the important weapons in a MSU list, then the benefit is not really there as hinted.

Sanctjud wrote:Well, IMO, the operational range of the Plasma gun and the Multi-melta on bikes make them a great pair becuase they are both 24" range.

I would not be saying larger squads are better for everyone, but if you don't maximize the important weapons in a MSU list, then the benefit is not really there as hinted.

Yeah, that 24" range band does match up nicely, but is there target overlap? I typically point my multimeltas at AV12+, and my plasma at MEQ/TEQ/MC units. The plasma gets wasted when firing at AV12+. Pairing the heavy bolter with the plasma tends to at least allow me to shoot something heavy at the plasma targets, while not wasting melta shots.
Of course, I tend to combat squad my large biker squads in objective, non-KP games. Of course, of late I've been seeing more and more folks running KPs as the secondary or tertiary objective in games, or as the deciding factor between a Massarce/Major/Minor result. In games liek that, the combat squad decision becomes much tougher. That's why I'm thinking of going to the 5-7 man MSU approach instead of the large 8-man+AB approach I've been using.

It's just that right now I'm stuck in this transition period where I'm trying to build and paint models to acieve that end, but am stuck in limbo using sub-optimal setups til then.

Watch out for Tau; those Kroot will get you.

Also, out of curiosity, what is "weird" about the Command Squad?
I tend to use my bikers for objective nabbing, and mechanized tacticals for babysitting home base. The Command Squad feels like a perfect unit to scythe down enemy models approaching my home base. If I've done well, transports should be smoking wrecks thanks to the bikers, Razor, and heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Claypool wrote:Watch out for Tau; those Kroot will get you.

How do you mean? Is this a warning about Infiltrating units in general, or about Outflankers?
Big Kroot Blobs are indeed a pain to take down, though once you cause them to break, they tend to not come back. The trick is causing them to break without a pie plate weapon, though I find focused twin-linked bolter fire can put them down for the count.

There is no waste if you use it as a stand off unit.
Str 8 at range and str 7 are very decent anti-lighter vehicles.
It's only when in 12" where the MM can hit heavier things...but plasmas double the output, it's not bad against medium targets then.

If you need to do Anti-powerarmor/termy/MC, the MM is for some better than the Hvy Bolter anyway...so it's win/win.
The only issue is, how risk averse or loving are you to roll with plasma weapons on bikers .

I am in the boat that it's one or the other in terms of MSU vs. Full Squads. Anything in the middle is a noticable oppurtunity cost.

Don't worry about sub-optimal, just run whatever you feel you can run.
A biker list is not just a list, it is a resource management list that takes alot of 'feel' to get you those wins.
______________________

As for krootsies, that is only a lesson of not being an idiot nor a jerk.
Idiot for going into reserves in an open list environment.
Jerk for the opponent doing it and having to call over a judge...and then having the result forced.

There is no RAW to conclude what to do, hence it was a house rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wierd is just, wierd.
It's not often I see a more defensive set up for command squads.

Sanctjud wrote:
As for krootsies, that is only a lesson of not being an idiot nor a jerk.
Idiot for going into reserves in an open list environment.
Jerk for the opponent doing it and having to call over a judge...and then having the result forced.

There is no RAW to conclude what to do, hence it was a house rule.

You lost me here, lol. I'm guessing you're talking about a Tau player who tried to outflank Krootbastards without declaring their deployment method when they were placed in reserve?

Wierd is just, wierd.
It's not often I see a more defensive set up for command squads.

Yeah, this will be the first time I field them, and I'm not entirely sure how they'll do. Theoryhammer FTL!

TheRhino wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:
As for krootsies, that is only a lesson of not being an idiot nor a jerk.
Idiot for going into reserves in an open list environment.
Jerk for the opponent doing it and having to call over a judge...and then having the result forced.

There is no RAW to conclude what to do, hence it was a house rule.

You lost me here, lol. I'm guessing you're talking about a Tau player who tried to outflank Krootbastards without declaring their deployment method when they were placed in reserve?

That thread will explain it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/277109.page

That's flipping hilarious!

TheRhino
I've been playing bikes for a couple months now... here's some ideas:

power fists on bike sergeants are pretty iffy bc bikes arent very strong in close combat - especially the size squads you're running. against hard core assault units you will get to swing it maybe once if at all. against units that aren't that great in assault you don't need it. it's just too expensive for what it is.

every sergeant can benefit from having a combi weapon. in my opinion the purpose of a small bike squad is to deliver special weapon attacks where and when they are needed. I'd count them as lost if they get into close combat, unless they're fighting something really dinky or you have some hard core assault unit backing them up. they're not expensive squads so you don't lose much if they die.

tedur is right always include an attack bike. the multi melta is far better than the heavy bolter and only a little bit more expensive. if you need to deal with hordes use flame throwers. bikes have the mobility to put these things where they're needed and are cheap enough to suicide if you've got to do it.

don't take plasma pistols. they are too expensive for what they do. a combi plasma shoots twice instead of just once and only costs you a single attack in close combat. even with a power fist the single attack isnt likely to make or break you in close combat, but an extra shot with the right combi weapon can make all the difference.

AF

@AF's post, but I think he has put me on his ignore list :

Yes, bikers don't like combat. And with respect to larger squads, fists are an insurance really.
Bikers will find themselves in combat on occasions...and these occasions should ones that you launch yourself to deny the enemy the charge.

MM Attack bikes are really good.
I don't mind the HB Attack Bikes too much, they are a nice damage sponge and put some more dakka into a squad, esp. if they are equipped with flamers.

As for:

even with a power fist the single attack isnt likely to make or break you in close combat,

The minimum is 2 attacks not one, and 1 or 2 wound CAN make or break combat, and they can hurt tanks in combat better, and take on walkers and getting that last wound off MCs, or threaten ID on iCS.
Basically, it's expensive, but adds alot to the squad in terms of what they can do.

Sanctjud wrote:Captain is decent. I prefer the Storm Shield, but AArmor is ok as well.
Command squad, it looks ok as a sort supporting counter shooter for the mech element.
Just kinda weird.

Bike with just fist: not good. The point of bikers is special weapon delivery. Ranged options are first. A 5 model powerfist is not very ‘hidden’ which is the whole point of the fist really.

Second Bike Squad: the plasma pistol is IMO a poor option. He is expensive and he is still stuck at no bonus attacks. A Combi-plasma would do you better because at the 12” range you will likely only get one shot.
Plasma guns are ok as a more stand-off unit.

Third bikers:
Power weapon, it’s a sad upgrade because you pay the full prices for only half the benefits, remember he has no offhand weapon so no bonus attack. Melta guns are good.

For the bikers, there is an alarming lack of attack bikes. They are one of the most cost effective options…and IMO MAKE the biker army, rather than just the lame bikers honestly.

Tactical squads look meh. I don’t think the fist is needed.
Attack bike squadrons look ok, but the main bikers need them more at this moment.
Typhoons are ok.

It’s ok to do MSU, but without the attack bikes, I don’t think you will have that great results.

Assault squads are not the answer. I think you need more FA support and more attack bike really. If that isn’t enough then Mortis Dreads for the ranged cover fire.

I have got to agree with all of this, except that the Tacticals are meh. They play an important role in the army as support, but being in a support role they don't require a powerfist. You may want to consider running the Khan on foot with the Command Squad so the army can outflank if you wish (keeping the Captain on bike of course so your bike squads are troops). I think the Khan is worth it on foot but moondrakken makes him kind of lame.

Khan on foot is a points black hole.
Not only do you invest in him... you have to invest in the Command Squad...gear them, then give them a transport they can't charge out of or bikes.

So... it's really expensive pointswise.
In addition, you lose Combat Tactics. Certainly it doesn't come up often, but it's an option available through the whole game. Outflank is only available one time...and the decision to do so is at a point in time with most uncertainty.

Tactials are meh. As a support option, they are can do well at that, but universally they are the jack of all trades, master of none, so that makes them meh.
They don't offer the same speed.
They don't offer what others do for cover fire.
They offer similar short ranged fire power to bikers.

The only thing they offer over bikers is marginally more bodies, a light vehicle, and the ability to climb stairs. Now granted it's nice to have, but they are not cheap. They are not cheap for a support option that doesn't compliment or suppliment the list offensively. They are meh, working as loners essentially in a list that really needs to focus on force concentration and redeployment...which they can do and not do well at the same time.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
power fists on bike sergeants are pretty iffy bc bikes arent very strong in close combat - especially the size squads you're running. against hard core assault units you will get to swing it maybe once if at all. against units that aren't that great in assault you don't need it. it's just too expensive for what it is.

Indeed. My powerfist sergeant has been very hit-or-miss. Some games he's a life saver, others he's just a schmuck with a big hand. lol.
I'm trying to get myself into a shooty-bike mentality, so combi-weapons are in my future. I really need to concentrate on the maneuver and application of force aspects of my bikers. Sanctjud and I have had many conversations about this idea both here, and at B&C, and it's given me a lot of ideas.

every sergeant can benefit from having a combi weapon. in my opinion the purpose of a small bike squad is to deliver special weapon attacks where and when they are needed. I'd count them as lost if they get into close combat, unless they're fighting something really dinky or you have some hard core assault unit backing them up. they're not expensive squads so you don't lose much if they die.

This will happen once I switch over to an MSU build, either via combat squads, or multiple 6-man units. However, I am stubborn, and really hate kamikaze units. I abandoned a drop pod build early in my career because it felt like I was throwing away lives, lol. I still refuse to drop pod my Dreads for this reason

tedur is right always include an attack bike. the multi melta is far better than the heavy bolter and only a little bit more expensive. if you need to deal with hordes use flame throwers. bikes have the mobility to put these things where they're needed and are cheap enough to suicide if you've got to do it.

Funnily enough, I normally always do. I'd just ripped the ABs out of the squads in order to have a dedicated tank-hunter unit with two multimeltas. I suffer from this thing I like to call "Meltaluck." It's a phenomenon where you either whiff with every melta weapon, or hit with every one, but roll snakeyes on all your AP rolls. The desire was to have more than one MM firing at a given target in order to ensure its destruction or nullification. In hindsight, I could actually just use my syandard combat squad approach instead. Normally, when I bring an 8-man+AB unit, I'll combat squad it down into the sergeant with the pair of specials, and the AB with three bolter bikes. If I take a MMAB with each squad, and combat squad each, I can run a one-two punch. Instead of having one unit of MMABs that have to all fire at one target, I have two MMABs that can fire at the same target if needed, but also have some bolter bike wound cushions for those krak and las shots coming downrange.

don't take plasma pistols. they are too expensive for what they do. a combi plasma shoots twice instead of just once and only costs you a single attack in close combat. even with a power fist the single attack isnt likely to make or break you in close combat, but an extra shot with the right combi weapon can make all the difference.

But, but, but...! Plasma pistols are sexy, and I have 4000 of them in my bitz box! I'm still torn on this one, honestly. I'll probably be a fool and run the plasma pistol for a couple games just to see how it pans out on the table. I already built the guy, because I was bored and waiting for a primer coat to dry. haha.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

bryan40kman2000 wrote:
I have got to agree with all of this, except that the Tacticals are meh. They play an important role in the army as support, but being in a support role they don't require a powerfist. You may want to consider running the Khan on foot with the Command Squad so the army can outflank if you wish (keeping the Captain on bike of course so your bike squads are troops). I think the Khan is worth it on foot but moondrakken makes him kind of lame.

Exactly. The tacticals I do include are for support. They're a numerous (for Marines, anyways) unit that's a major pain to shift when they get entrenched, perfect for defensive duty while the Bikers zip about blowing things up.

As for Khan, I am just not a fan. Some biker generals love him, but I do not. I ran him once in a tournament, and he was so very underwhelming. I'm a fluff-nut, so it'd gall me to run him on foot. Moondrakkan makes him very expensive, and actually limits your tactical flexibility, IMO. Some guys can run him really well, but I can't. It boils down to playstyle.

I still refuse to drop pod my Dreads for this reason

Don't worry, you are only throwing away half a life with that combo

Khan again: the 'playstyle' being more Death Star-y. Which isn't terrible, but boring and predictable.