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OK I'm having a problem beating my friend's army where he uses Shrike (sorry not kantor my bad!) and a squad of assault marines to infiltrate 18" away from my troops, move 12" during his turn and then assault 6". And since Kantor can give fleet to everyone, he has an assault range of 19" to 24" max! So I was hoping someone here could help me build a list to help beat him (instead of just refusing to play with him when he uses that army)

here was his list as I remember it:

anyways for the generally build of his army:
2 10 tac squads (Can't think of upgrades on them if he had them) and no transports for them
1 legion of the damned squad (maxed out people, no weapons other than bolters)
1 assualt squad with Shrike infiltrating (1 plasma pistol and thats it)
1 vanguard (or whatever, the assualty vetern assault squad people) with meltabombs
1 shrike

here's my current list I last used while trying not to tailor it. (note: all units with drones are assumed to have a HWDC unless noted, and where it says "2 ... Teams" that means I have 2 teams of the following, not the total composition of them both)


HQ
Shas'el W/ Pos Relay,Missile Pod, Shield Generator
Total: 97
Notes:deploys with broadsides to take care of any transports and vehicles.
------------------------------------------
Heavy Support
Broadside Team
2 Shas'ui W/ Plasma Rifles, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone
Total: 285
Notes: Deploys with shas'o to take care of heavy vehicles, and generally stay put.

2 Sniper Teams
Total: 160pt
Notes: Also start out on the field so They can make the most of shooting marines (and are only 25pt more expensive then an ionhead for 6 shots of ap3 and markerlight at BS4 )

HammerHead W/ Railgun, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker
Total: 170
Notes: Some extra anti horde/marines if they get bunched up (statistically better then an ionhead if they number about 5-6 anyways) and some extra AT
--------------------------------
Troops
Fire Warrior Team
6 Shas'la W/ Devilfish(Smart Missile System, Targeting Array, Multi-Tracker,Disruption Pod)
Total: 180pt
Notes: Meant to be able to take some objectives while being shooty.

2 Kroot Kindreds
10 Kroot
10 Hounds
Total: 260pt (130pt each)
Notes: Meant to help against assaults, and such with 60 attacks on the charge
--------------------------------
Elites
2 Crisis Team
2 Shas'ui w/ Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone, Bonding Knife
Total: 442pt (221pt each)
Notes: Meant to be anti-marine with a little anti-tank

Stealth Team
6 Shas'ui
2 Fusion Blasters
Total: 184
Notes: Meant to be small anti-marine with a volume of shots (advice on how to set them up better would be nice please!)

Final Notes: all C&C is welcome as it'll hopefully help me beat my friend badly enough or atleast often enough he stops using cheese tactics in friendly games.
Final Total: 1848

Shrike is the one who gives fleet, not Kantor.

mech up and stay in your devilfish until you're ready to strike. use your devil fish to screen your more expensive crisis suits. or bait them with something expendable to draw them out of cover, then blast them with your plasma rifles. without knowing more about your opponent's list it's hard to be more specific.
AF

Firstly, Shrike is the SMurf character that gives fleet.
Secondly, reserves is a wonderful thing.
Kroot bubble wrap can be used.

Those are some options off the top of my head.
________________

If he's being a jerk you can throw it right back at him and quote RAW disallowing Shrike to infiltrate with assault marines

Else, yea, prepare to lose something like an armored vehicle and then kill said unit with mass concentrated fire.

I don't play tau, but I saw the first few lines of your post and thought I'd let you know that if your friend is infiltrating and fleeting with Kantor, he's cheating you something hard. Now, if he's using Shrike, that'd be right.

I don't know the Tau codex so well, but some general tips against that are:
>Start with your valuable units deployed in terrain. If he wants to jump over and get you he'll have to make dangerous terrain checks and probably lose a marine or two.
>Lose combat. If you've got something that will let you reroll morale in your army, make sure that it doesn't affect the "outer most units" in your deployment. If you lost combat, yes, you lost a unit, but then you've got a magnificent turn of shooting against him.
>Go first. I know, it's random to a point, but if you get the chance to go first I'd suggest you take it. You can then mauever and shoot Shrike's unit.
>Reserves. If all else fails, you could just hold your whole army in reserves. Won't be terribly effective the rest of the game, but it'd be just like going first where you'd get shooting on Shrike before he assualts you.

Play Eldar and redeploy your units after he infiltrates. Wait, gak, wrong codex. lol

Don't be afraid to hide your suits behind your Devilfish/hammerhead and make the most of the cover they provide. You can move out, shoot and make your assault move right behind the Devilfish again to protect them. Wait until he gets within plasma rifle range and shoot him up.

@all sorry my bad yeah it's shirke I don't play sphess marhinez and got the two mixed up

@bforber
almost everything starts in reserves but I'll try this.

@darkdm yeah, I try for first, but he makes that lucky 6 for stealing, or beats my 4 with a 5, etc.
and about having everything in reserves is called "nin'ja" tau (which I find awesomely effective), because we get to place units we want on the board when we want them (unless we get a 1 on a D6) and then flood the board on turn 4/5 with so many targets we just overwhelm them with options after crushing them in one round of destructive shooting.

@Sanctjud
I'll probably put a kroot squad out next and see above about my reserves. also I think Shrike gives infiltrate to the squad he joins btw not sure though I'll have to check his codex again

@AbaddonFidelis
that's an option also I've thought about. I'll also post a more specific list (not with all the upgrades, but most of it) with what he took, etc

@ Dracos
yep my bad

wolf
yeah we dont need to know his army down to the last meltabomb. just the general outline. one way to deal with hyper effective close combat units is to bait them with something of lesser value. what can I say alot of players dont think strait they go for it. example: 20 genestealers charge a tac squad, annihilate it, and then die to rapid firing bolters. winner: marines. the genestealers are way more expensive than the tac squad. same thing with shrike vs a squad of fire warriors or kroot or whatever. As long as you're certain of annihilating the squad once its out of the combat dont be afraid to chump your units. It's all for the greater good
AF

My goal is to help trim the fat, to see if we can find points to increase your fire power to pour into those Raven Guard. Take all of this with, "I would ... "

Wolfblade wrote:Shas'O W/ Pos Relay,Missile Pod, Shield Generator, Stimm Injector, 2 Shield Drones, Bonding Knife, Iridium Armor, HW Target Lock

Trim down. No bling at all. Shas'el with PosRelay to preserve your Ninja-tactic, TL-MP, hwTarget Lock, no SDs.

Wolfblade wrote:Broadside Team 2 Shas'ui W/ Plasma Rifles, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone
Notes: Deploys with shas'o to take care of heavy vehicles, and generally stay put.

Add a SD.

Wolfblade wrote:2 Sniper Teams

Use 'em as a secondary or tertiary layer of bubble wrap.

Wolfblade wrote:HammerHead W/ Railgun, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker

Flechettes, since there's marines up-in-yo'grill.

Wolfblade wrote: 6 Shas'la W/ Devilfish(Smart Missile System, Targeting Array, Multi-Tracker,Disruption Pod)

Flechettes, again.

Wolfblade wrote:2 Kroot Kindreds
10 Kroot
10 Hounds
Notes: Meant to help against assaults, and such with 60 attacks on the charge

bubble wrap, but do you have more? If anything, I would have two units. Unit A would be tightly spaced, not allowing SM to move through the models, that way, when assaulted, this is the only unit contacted. Unit B would just behind those, as a secondary layer. Unit A should be just kroot, no hounds, you'll want them to get cleaned off in the first assault so you can hose down Shrike and his buddies on your Turn's Shooting Phase.

Wolfblade wrote:2 Crisis Team 2 Shas'ui w/ Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone, Bonding Knife
Total: 442pt (221pt each)
Notes: Meant to be anti-marine with a little anti-tank

While good for cooking down SM, I'm wondering where the MathHammer (I'm not good at it) pits these Helios versus FireStorm, in killing MEqs. FireKnives might be better too, for volume. Really though, check ATT for the MathHammer (AdvacnedTauTactica.com), don't take my word for it.

Wolfblade wrote: Crisis Team
Shas'ui W/ TL Flamer, Missile Pod
Shas'ui W/ TL Missile Pod, Flamer
Shas'ui Team Leader W/ TL Flamer, Missile Pod, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone, Bonding Knife
Total: 163
Notes: Meant to be anti-horde/transport

Since you're facing SM, why have flamers? Range-wise, it guarantees h2h in the next round. I'd reconfig. Is this possible or are your models set in glue?

Wolfblade wrote: atleast often enough he stops using cheese tactics in friendly games.

This. When a Frequent Opponent started going WAAC on me, and a wee bit of cheating to boot (he didn't need to cheat, he's a better 40k player than I am) I stopped playing him. It sucks, but there ya go.

That makes me think of the time he went all Drop Pods. I would have one round of shooting before my tau were overwhelmed.

My counter tactic was to go all Reserve. Hold back everything. Turn 1, he'd end up castling 3 drop pods worth of Sternguard and tacticals (Kantor and the CFists) and put the other two DPs where ever. I started winning again.


So, for you:
1. Infiltrate the kroot. It'll put off Shrike's deployment and maybe even distract the unit away from your deployment edge.
2. Put A.s.s. on the b-sides and skip the PosRelay on the HQ. It pretty much means Shrike and crew will *not* be assaulting you before you get to hose 'em down for a bit. Take out the Sniper Drones for this (being Heavy Weapons), and split the broadsides into two separate teams, so each has Team Leader, A.s.s., and hwMT, for either PlasmaRifle or SMS ... and two Shield Drones.
3. Look into the best anti-MEq loadout for Crisis Suits. My guess: FireStorms, for range/safety and volume fire.

It's not Ninja-tau, as you'll want a lot of fire power to show up ASAP, but Turn 2. Units walk on while Shrike and crew are waiting, and you get a round of fire from ... conceivably half your army, given normal Reserve rolls. **This** whole approach is risky, given poor Reserve rolls.

@abbadon
ok yeah I'll post the general build, both in a new post and my firstpost.

Brothererekose wrote:My goal is to help trim the fat, to see if we can find points to increase your fire power to pour into those Raven Guard. Take all of this with, "I would ... "

Wolfblade wrote:Shas'O W/ Pos Relay,Missile Pod, Shield Generator, Stimm Injector, 2 Shield Drones, Bonding Knife, Iridium Armor, HW Target Lock

Trim down. No bling at all. Shas'el with PosRelay to preserve your Ninja-tactic, TL-MP, hwTarget Lock, no SDs.
Wouldn't the point of a having him with the PosRelay to protect it as it's my main "weapon." anyways 95pt free (keeping the SG and MP to fill hard points)

Wolfblade wrote:Broadside Team 2 Shas'ui W/ Plasma Rifles, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone
Notes: Deploys with shas'o to take care of heavy vehicles, and generally stay put.

Add a SD.
kk

Wolfblade wrote:2 Sniper Teams

Use 'em as a secondary or tertiary layer of bubble wrap.

Wolfblade wrote:HammerHead W/ Railgun, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod, Target Lock, Multi-Tracker

Flechettes, since there's marines up-in-yo'grill.
ok 45pt left

Wolfblade wrote: 6 Shas'la W/ Devilfish(Smart Missile System, Targeting Array, Multi-Tracker,Disruption Pod)

Flechettes, again.
ok 25pt

Wolfblade wrote:2 Kroot Kindreds
10 Kroot
10 Hounds
Notes: Meant to help against assaults, and such with 60 attacks on the charge

bubble wrap, but do you have more? If anything, I would have two units. Unit A would be tightly spaced, not allowing SM to move through the models, that way, when assaulted, this is the only unit contacted. Unit B would just behind those, as a secondary layer. Unit A should be just kroot, no hounds, you'll want them to get cleaned off in the first assault so you can hose down Shrike and his buddies on your Turn's Shooting Phase.

Wolfblade wrote:2 Crisis Team 2 Shas'ui w/ Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Multi-Trackers
1 Shas'ui Team Leader W/ Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone, Bonding Knife
Total: 442pt (221pt each)
Notes: Meant to be anti-marine with a little anti-tank

While good for cooking down SM, I'm wondering where the MathHammer (I'm not good at it) pits these Helios versus FireStorm, in killing MEqs. FireKnives might be better too, for volume. Really though, check ATT for the MathHammer (AdvacnedTauTactica.com), don't take my word for it.
I've found them 100 times better so I'll stick with them, as the garenteed marine kill (if it hits and wounds) is much better than seeing if they hit that 33% chance of failing (with volume of fire)

Wolfblade wrote: Crisis Team
Shas'ui W/ TL Flamer, Missile Pod
Shas'ui W/ TL Missile Pod, Flamer
Shas'ui Team Leader W/ TL Flamer, Missile Pod, HW Multi-Tracker, 1 Shield Drone, Bonding Knife
Total: 163
Notes: Meant to be anti-horde/transport

Since you're facing SM, why have flamers? Range-wise, it guarantees h2h in the next round. I'd reconfig. Is this possible or are your models set in glue?
Yeah I tried to make it non army tailored so I put them in for poping transports and then flaming the troops. anyways I'll probably trade them in for a stealth team with fusion blasters

Wolfblade wrote: atleast often enough he stops using cheese tactics in friendly games.

This. When a Frequent Opponent started going WAAC on me, and a wee bit of cheating to boot (he didn't need to cheat, he's a better 40k player than I am) I stopped playing him. It sucks, but there ya go.
yeah I figure if he continues I'll stop playing him. not like hes the only person at the LGS. or the only friend who plays 40k who we plau against when the store closes

That makes me think of the time he went all Drop Pods. I would have one round of shooting before my tau were overwhelmed.

My counter tactic was to go all Reserve. Hold back everything. Turn 1, he'd end up castling 3 drop pods worth of Sternguard and tacticals (Kantor and the CFists) and put the other two DPs where ever. I started winning again.


So, for you:
1. Infiltrate the kroot. It'll put off Shrike's deployment and maybe even distract the unit away from your deployment edge.
2. Put A.s.s. on the b-sides and skip the PosRelay on the HQ. It pretty much means Shrike and crew will *not* be assaulting you before you get to hose 'em down for a bit. Take out the Sniper Drones for this (being Heavy Weapons), and split the broadsides into two separate teams, so each has Team Leader, A.s.s., and hwMT, for either PlasmaRifle or SMS ... and two Shield Drones.
3. Look into the best anti-MEq loadout for Crisis Suits. My guess: FireStorms, for range/safety and volume fire.
ok I'll use some of these tactics, but I'll stick with heilos suits (FB and PR and MT) as they guarantee kills

It's not Ninja-tau, as you'll want a lot of fire power to show up ASAP, but Turn 2. Units walk on while Shrike and crew are waiting, and you get a round of fire from ... conceivably half your army, given normal Reserve rolls. **This** whole approach is risky, given poor Reserve rolls.

anyways for the generally build of his army:
2 10 tac squads (Can't think of upgrades on them if he had them) and no transport for them
1 legion of the damned squad (maxed out people, no weapons other than bolters)
1 assualt squad with Shrike infiltrating (1 plasma pistol and thats it)
1 vanguard (or whatever, the assualty vetern assault squad people) with meltabombs
1 shrike

what are the tac squads in? rhinos? razorbacks? drop pods?
what's his hq?

This Shrike gimmick list can be beaten simply by deployment, and taking the second turn.

If you win the roll-off, make him go first. He'll have to deploy anything not reserved, AND declare which squad Shrike is joining BEFORE you deploy. If he plans to use Infiltrate, he has to state as such before the end of his deployment. Only the unit joined to Shrike will be infiltrating! If he infils the Assault Squad, you know he's after your infantry, or a long shot at your tanks with krak grenades. If he infils the Vanguard, you know he's after your tanks (wasting a meltabomb-heavy squad on troops is goofy).

Once it's your turn, build a little fence out of your Kroot squads around your Fish and hammerhead. This keeps him from getting to them before they have a chance to move (auto-hits). you can leave your suits and such in reserve.
Yu can even use the sniper teams as screens, or as an infiration barrier. Remember, the infiltrators have to set up outside 18", so withproper placement of your units, you can force him to infiltrate in crappy spots. Try to crowd him into terrain. Assault marines take a Dangerous terrain test PER MODEL when moving 12" in or out of terrain.

This is a seriously piss-poor Shrike build, honestly. A fa better one would be Shrike with a larg eunit of tooled up vanguard, and a whole army of marine Scouts. the Scouts already have infiltrate and scout. they can set up at 18", move 6" during the scout move, then move 6" in the first turn, Fleet, and charge with the ENTIRE army, not just one crappy unit. If you elect to go all in reserve to avoid that alpha strike, they deploy in a massive line on your board edge to keep anyof your units coming in, and he auto-wins.

@Abaddon: no rhinos, and sorry I forgot to put shrike in but I fixed it thanks!

@TheRhino
Ok thanks I'll use these tactics next time we play! (if he uses that list again)

hmmmm...... I'm not a tau player.... but I can tell you from looking at the marine's list that he's not playing a very hard-core list.... you can definitely overcome this challenge. my advice would be to mech up and stay mobile.

Alot of players talk about something "earning its points back." this is really nonsense. You don't want to break even on exchanges; you want to kill all of his stuff while taking zero casualties in return if possible. Try to create this situation by isolating parts of his army and completely destroying them before the rest of his can respond. In order to do this you need to be running devil fish and crisis suits and few if any static elements.

Let's say that Ts are your units and Ms are his. This set up, below, does not favor you, just based on ponit values of the untis...

MT


MT


MT
but this one...

M



M



MTTT
does. You outnumber on the left three to one. You should win over there. If you can do it without taking serious retaliation in his turn then next turn you've got

M




MTTT

and again the odds favor you. Repeat and win.

many players do not realize the importance of keeping units close enough to each other to support each other. I recommend this tactic to you because unless he's making a conscious effort to stick together, it looks to me like his army will tend to get pretty strung out and isolated. The key is to destroy the isolated unit *while* staying far enough away from him to avoid taking significant retaliation. Using this tactic you can win every time... or at least until he figures out what you're doing to him
AF

@above
just tried grouping things together in a recent game (before I posted this about 2-3 hours ago), and it worked pretty well, he ended up losing the game. Everything he tried he miserably failed at (shrike moved a little to close to kroots by going into the woods, and was overkilled by about 4 wounds. assault squad also died with him ). his assault termies with TH/SS faired slightly better killing about 10 kroot and a few hounds, but also they ended up being eaten (these were new as he had just bought them). and the shooty dreadnaughts he brought (2 assault cannons or auto cannons can't remember which) were just easy KP fro broadsides (pen on 3+, dead on 4+ ) I think this threaded can be deleted now. Thanks all!

We don't generally delete threads just because they're finished...

But I'll go ahead and lock it if you're done with it.