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Ok I had this one come up in my last game and this game too. Example:

My unit inside terrain firing at enemy unit out of terrain, opponent claims his unit gets a cover save because I'm shooting more than 2" out of terrain.

I read this bit here on P22:

"...Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all."

So from what my opponent explained my unit is 4" into terrain and because firing at his unit out of terrain they get a cover save. Is that right? I've never heard of this before but it looks like you can get cover saves even better, never had this done against me either.

Thanks.

Yes, as the rule you posted shows, your opponent was correct.

Well I be damned! Thanks for the confirmation. I guess normally I put my men close to the terrain edge. I'll remember that!

mercer wrote:Well I be damned! Thanks for the confirmation. I guess normally I put my men close to the terrain edge. I'll remember that!

They still need to be "close". No Point putting them 2.1" inside.

Last I checked simply firing out of area terrain didn't grant a save. Only firing through area terrain does, defined as 'through the gaps between some elements of area terrain'.

There's no bullet on that list that says that simply firing out of area terrain grants a cover save.
There's just one saying that if you are, you can ignore some of the area terrain (as in, you can ignore 2" of firing through elements).

Gorkamorka wrote:Last I checked simply firing out of area terrain didn't grant a save. Only firing through area terrain does, defined as 'through the gaps between some elements of area terrain'.

There's no bullet on that list that says that simply firing out of area terrain grants a cover save.
There's just one saying that if you are, you can ignore some of the area terrain (as in, you can ignore 2" of firing through elements).

Page 22 disagrees with you.

mercer wrote:
I read this bit here on P22:

"...Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all."

It says you can fire UP TO 2" through area terrain before it confers a cover save to the opponent.

So if you're firing out of terrain but 6" deep into it then it will grant a cover save.

That's what I understand it as now.

whitedragon wrote:Page 22 disagrees with you.

mercer wrote:
I read this bit here on P22:

"...Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all."

Please point out where it says that firing through more than 2" grants a cover save.
It says (paraphrased) 'may fire through 2" of the terrain they are occupying without the terrain conferring a save', which does not imply the inverse 'firing through more than 2" of the terrain they are occupying does confer a save'.

All that bullet does is allow the firer to ignore 2" of terrain it is in.

Gorkamorka has it right.

It DOES NOT say that firing through >2" of area terrain grants a cover save.

It says that firing through <2" of area terrain WILL NOT confer a cover save from that same piece of terrain.

The difference here is, if my models are standing in a crater, and your guys are in completely clear LOS, they can shoot you without you getting a cover save no matter where they are.

However, if my guys are standing in a forest, and most of your guys are obscured by that tall hedge at the edge of MY area terrain, they'll get their cover save UNLESS I'm firing through less than 2" of the area terrain.

(They may fire through <2" of the area terrain without that terrain - aka the hedge I mentioned - conferring a cover save).

WILL NOT was my arguement last night. But I'm also reading it that if you're firing over 2" it grants cover.

You have to look at the diagram on the bottom of page 22 BRB.

If you are shooting at mobel 'B', it gets a cover save because you are firing "through" the terrain (through 2 elements).

If you were firing at 'B' and were more than 2" in from the edge between you and 'B', it would get a cover save because you are still firing "through" elements of the terrain.

If you were firing "through" the gaps and were in the terrain but were less than 2" from the edge, the target unit would not get a cover save.

The 3 considerations are (in order of importance);

Are you in the area terrain?

Are you firing "through" elements of the area terrain?

Are you firing through more or less than 2" of the terrain?

"Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target."

...which means that: they may fire through MORE THAN 2" of area terrain they are occupying WITH conferring a cover save to the target.

The real question here is why this is being debated.

You are commiting a logical fallacy if you assume that, though.

If you shoot within 2" of the edge of area terrain, EVEN IF you fire between two elements (which would normally confer a save) you do not do so.

If you fire more than 2" in and do not fire between two elements of terrain, you DO NOT confer a cover save

I think it's pretty clear. more than 2" in and they get a save, as implied by omission. Less than 2" and you have the advantage.

This is a pretty commonly misinterpreted rule.


In order to gain a cover save, the target has to be partially obscured.
Area terrain grants an extra provision, whereby the target can also receive a cover save if the firer's LOS passes between elements of the terrain.

If the firer is inside the terrain, and they are shooting through less than 2" of it, this cover save is removed.

That's all that the rule in question says. The save (if there is one) is removed if the LOS passes through less than 2" of the terrain. It doesn't grant a save automatically for firing through more than 2" of it... the save comes from the target being obscured, or the LOS passing between elements of the terrain, as normal.

When I read through it it seemed like they meant if you both are in the same terrain, 2" apart, they dont get cover from the area terrain.

Its very vague though. They aren't clear enough on what "firing through" is, in my opinion.

The rule is referring solely to models inside area terrain. Whether or not the target is also in the terrain makes no difference.

insaniak wrote:The rule is referring solely to models inside area terrain. Whether or not the target is also in the terrain makes no difference.

which is what i said in the first place

i think its simple firing through area terrain grants a save unles you are occupying that terrain and firing through less then 2" of it

croggy wrote:i think its simple firing through area terrain grants a save unles you are occupying that terrain and firing through less then 2" of it

Except it doesn't.

Firing between elements of the area terrain, or the terrain obscuring the target grants a cover save.
Just firing though the terrain does not.

Firing through less than 2" of area terrain removes the cover save if there is one. For that to apply, the LOS still has to pass between elements of the terrain, or the target needs to be obscured by it.

well yes ofcourse normal rules apply (although i do often let people claim a cover save from me firing over things like craters and the like because it covers there feet and like da book says "deliberately generous")
it was a ruin that was being fired through and he was 4" away from the edge of ruin while inside its walls

Terrain often becomes a pain in the butt arguement since TLOS became an issue. I think it is best to just agree beforehand how each terrain piece works on a game by game basis instead of trying to establish a standard. If I build all my own area terrain and throw in bushes all around the edges so everything inside is obscured then no problem, right? But if I want a copse of trees that, for aesthetic reasons, don't have to be surrounded by a little hedge defining its borders, it should just be agreed upon beforehand how it works. Terrain is neutral, as are the rules, but modelling getting in the way should not have to be a subject of contesting which rule applies. Just agree beforehand and all is well.

Guitardian wrote:I think it is best to just agree beforehand how each terrain piece works on a game by game basis instead of trying to establish a standard.

I am glad you do, since that is what you are supposed to do, RaW. Page 88 of the BRB, under "Define Terrain".

We usually treat all ruins, woods and such as area terrain right out to the boundaries. It really helps to keep the games flowing smoothly.

insaniak wrote:

croggy wrote:i think its simple firing through area terrain grants a save unles you are occupying that terrain and firing through less then 2" of it

Firing through less than 2" of area terrain removes the cover save if there is one. For that to apply, the LOS still has to pass between elements of the terrain, or the target needs to be obscured by it.

This is what I think it actually means. If firing through less than 2" of area terrain it will remove a cover save if there is one. A enemy unit out in the open won't get a cover save if firing through 6" of terrain, that would make units life a lot lot longer.

Well units in the open WOULD get a save if you fire through more than 2" of terrain *and* you are firing between 2 elements of the terrain.

I wasn't. I was inside a building and firing out at a unit directly in the open. I was just about 4" into terrain.

Except your statement was incorrect - you stated that an enemy unit "in the open" would NOT get a cover save when 6" in, when they very definitely CAN get a cover save. All that has to happen is you are more than 2" in, they are partially obscured OR you are firing between 2 elements. In both those cases the unit in the open will receive a cover save.

mercer wrote:I wasn't. I was inside a building and firing out at a unit directly in the open. I was just about 4" into terrain.

Do you mean a ruin? A building is handled like firing out of a transport. With a ruin it's fairly hard to be that deep in the terrain and not be firing through two elements of it. If you were firing between two elements, then yes, they get a save, if you weren't then no they don't.

Again though, as has been said, this is why everyone needs to be clear ahead of time on what terrain counts as what. But the default to claim a cover save is exactly what Nos posted.

If you are more than 2" from the edge, they get a cover save when you fire at them. I don't see why this is so complicated. If you are in the terrain and so are they, you both get cover saves because you are both in the terrain.

Guitardian - it is complicated because, despite many people explaining why this ISNT the case, you still refuse to provide reasons why you believe they are wrong - just an opinion.

You are commiting a logical fallacy (if A-> B then notA->notB) by inferring that you DO get a cover save when all the rule states is when you DONT get a save.