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I had an interesting situation come up yesterday. There was a very large piece of "area-terrain" ruins in the center of the table, made from the standard GW ruined-buiilding sets. I had my unit of warp spiders huddled against one of the ruin walls. My opponent had a sternguard veteran squad on the other side of that very wall, but also within the overall "area-terrain". He then proceeded to fire through the two windows in the wall separating the units.

The question that came up is whether my warp spiders receive a cover save or not. My opponent referred to the rules that the first 2" of area terrain do not confer cover saves, and as he had at least some LOS, then he could shoot without me getting the 3+ cover save (fortified by a techmarine). I would agree if the wall wasn't there and we were 2" apart in the same "area-terrain", but shouldn't the rules about 50% of the models obscured still apply?

The redshirt at the store we were playing at said I got the cover save, but I wanted to check with dakkadakka to see what their thoughts were. Let me know if my description is confusing and I can try to sketch it up.

What would RAW be, and how would you play it?

sarukai wrote:I had an interesting situation come up yesterday. There was a very large piece of "area-terrain" ruins in the center of the table, made from the standard GW ruined-buiilding sets. I had my unit of warp spiders huddled against one of the ruin walls. My opponent had a sternguard veteran squad on the other side of that very wall, but also within the overall "area-terrain". He then proceeded to fire through the two windows in the wall separating the units.

The question that came up is whether my warp spiders receive a cover save or not. My opponent referred to the rules that the first 2" of area terrain do not confer cover saves, and as he had at least some LOS, then he could shoot without me getting the 3+ cover save (fortified by a techmarine). I would agree if the wall wasn't there and we were 2" apart in the same "area-terrain", but shouldn't the rules about 50% of the models obscured still apply?

The redshirt at the store we were playing at said I got the cover save, but I wanted to check with dakkadakka to see what their thoughts were. Let me know if my description is confusing and I can try to sketch it up.

What would RAW be, and how would you play it?

Just like the 2" rule from firing out of terrain, you don't confer cover if you're adjacent to terrain either. So, you're not separated by 2" of terrain, check. You're standing adjacent to a piece of terrain, check. Besides the adjacent piece of terrain, there's nothing between the two units, check.

I'd say no cover either way.

How're you standing so close to each other and remaining 1" away?

The units were basically exactly 1" apart, going straight through the wall. The sternguard are in blue, and the warp spiders are in red.

The windows are small gaps so yes they would get a cover save.

Your Poll is misleading. RaW is one way or the other, it cannot be Both.

Incidentally, the RaW is as follows.

If the ruin was defined as "Area Terrain" (as per page 88 of the BRB), the Sternguard are INSIDE the "Area Terrain" and the Warp Spiders OUTSIDE the "Area Terrain", then as per page 22 under the exception "Firing out of area terrain", the Warp Spiders would not get a cover save against the Sternguards shooting.

In addition, as the Sternguard are INSIDE the terrain, any wounds caused by the Warp Spiders shooting (regardless of whether they are Inside or Outside the "Area Terrain") would allow a cover save (though as Spiders are AP - iirc, it wouldn't matter anyway ).

Edit: Woops, silly typo! Fix'd!

The poll is not misleading. It is asking for opinions on what the RAW is. Since you can't choose multiple options, it does not allow for multiple different interpretations of RAW.

In any case, if you called the ruins area terrain then yes, there would be no cover save.

However, the group I play with does not call it area terrain, because it would be just a ruin. Being a ruin, and the fact that both units are against the wall feature of the ruin, both units would get cover saves from any shooting.

You sorat have to think, If I was in this situation, what would it look like? IMO I see starn guard huddled against the wall firing blindly out like sumthin' outta GOW, while the warp spyders are utiling their 'eldaric' speed and in a way doging the flying bolts, while staying just out of the corner of the 'guards eyes.

(just got to my rulebook)

It was a large multi-level ruin, using the rules on pg. 82. This is why his techmarine was able to fortify them. The same page also states that all ruins are "area-terrain" as well, and our was on a rocky/debris-laden base to signify this. The warp spiders were on the outside of the ruined building, but still on the terrain's base.

On pg. 22, there are three rules that were the focus of the debate...

[1] "Inside area terrain: ... at least partially inside area terrain are in cover,, regardless ..."

[2] "Firing through units or area terain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain ... the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer ..."

[3] "Firing out of area terrain: ... Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target ..."

Now, since the spiders were on the same piece of ruin/area-terrain, shouldn't [3] not apply (firing within the area-terain, not out from it)?

Well, if you had defined the Base as "in" the terrain, then yes, they would have gotten the Cover save even if they are less than 2" away.

Sorry, I guess my picture wasn't as clear as I meant for it to be. The whole picture was supposed to represent the footprint of the ruin/area-terrain's base.

Edit:

Just to expand on the question, if we say for the future that outside the ruin is not part of the terrain, would I have been able to say "for each of your veterans, more than half of my unit's models are out of LOS... so they still get a cover-save?" Or would it just be no cover save then?


Thanks again for all your help!

it's easier with buildings, if you think about it like an FPS.
[a newer one]

You hide against a window, duck out to shoot out of it, then hide behind the window again.

Your enemy knows you're there, but he can't see you.

so, he'd shoot at you, attempting to do damage. he might get lucky. it's about 50/50 that he will hit you. [a bullet might penetrate wall even.]

so, 4+ cover save.

up against any hard cover, it's a 4+. if any part of the model is 50% in cover, then he is in cover, ergo. the squad is in cover if 50% are up against the wall.

you could always crouch down, I can't see that spider sitting in the same place the entire shoot out.

EDIT: due to the situation given, I'd still award a cover save. neither side is just gonna sit there spraying bullets in. they're gonna shoot each other, then they will hide again

Sarukai - no, you would not get saves as he is STILL Firing out of Ruins which are area terrain, and as such when you fire OUT of a ruin and within 2" of the edge you do not confer a cover save - it gives no allowance for exception, you simply do not give a cover save.

your situationn yes a cover save for both units but if your firing out of ruins to a squad in open area then no cover save for them only for you.

I would probably play it as a 5+ cover save. I mean the warp spiders are right there, so I wouldn't think they'd get as good a save as normal (certainly not 3+!). But they might get something for there being some intervening walls.

Yes, this has no basis in RAW. But my group and I don't care about being strict to RAW.

Yeah, they'd get a save.

Like the guy above, I'd only give a 5+ save, maybe a 4+ since it's fortified. The way me and my friends play is that since the whole ruin is area terrain, it's only a 5+ save, but if your unit is actually obscured by the ruin, then it's a 4+.

Yeah, this isn't a RAW question, I'd hafta say.