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HQ
Captain (Terminator armour) 140 pts
Command squad (4 plasma guns) 175 pts
Rhino 35 pts

MOTF (3 servitors, Power weapon) 145 pts

Troops
10 man Tac squad (Powerfist, Combi-melta, Melta gun, Lascannon) 220 pts
Rhino 35 pts

10 man Tac squad (Power weapon, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Lascannon) 205 pts
Rhino 35 pts

Scout squad (Powerfist, Melta bombs, 4 BP/CCW scouts) 105 pts

Elites
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
7 man Terminator squad (Cyclone missile launcher) 310 pts

Fast Attack
3 Landspeeders (3 Typhoons) 270 pts

Heavy Support
Venerable Dreadnought (TL-lascannon, missile launcher) 205 pts
Landraider 250 pts

2500 pts even


Expanding my Gunline tactics and lists into 'ard boyz point levels.

the idea is...

Captain goes with the Terminators.

Tac squads split. Special weapon and Sarg go in Transport. Heavy weapons deploy in cover(hopefully a bolstered ruin)

Dreadnoughts form backbone of the gunline, they will take advantage of cover to make the most of their Venerable status(4+ cover + Venerable=really tough to kill) BS5 with TL weapons makes my fire nearly 100% accurate.

Landspeeders back the Dreadnoughts up with weight of fire and can use their speed to respond to threats.
i could run them seperatly if you think that is best?

Landraider is a gunboat/mobile bunker.

Scouts outflank to project a 12" danger zone for enemy vehicles around the edges of the board. depending on the missions that come up they might infiltrate. they are also my backup troops choice incase my Tacs get wiped.

MOTF will run around fixing things that break.


What think you?

Grey Templar wrote:HQ
Captain (Terminator armour) 140 pts
Command squad (4 plasma guns) 175 pts
Rhino 35 pts

[remove captain, he's not worth his points. if your gonna pay 140 points, get my friend chappy cassius, he's cooler too.]

MOTF (3 servitors, Power weapon) 145 pts

[drop one servitor]

Troops
10 man Tac squad (Powerfist, Combi-melta, Melta gun, Lascannon) 220 pts
Rhino 35 pts

10 man Tac squad (Power weapon, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Lascannon) 205 pts
Rhino 35 pts

Scout squad (Powerfist, Melta bombs, 4 BP/CCW scouts) 105 pts

[split up the tacs squad, or take plasma gun. it's not worth taking a huge ranged weapon and then have the shortest range possible.]
[REMOVE BP/CCW. GIVE SHOTGUNS IMMEDIATLY. POTENTIALLY BETTER DAMAGE.]

Elites
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
7 man Terminator squad (Cyclone missile launcher) 310 pts

[drop one TL autocannon for a Plasma cannon. less shooty, more damage and can potentially hit more.]

Fast Attack
3 Landspeeders (3 Typhoons) 270 pts
[kewl, maybe use some of the spare points and rake out a multi melta?]

Heavy Support
Venerable Dreadnought (TL-lascannon, missile launcher) 205 pts
Landraider 250 pts

[find a way to get chronus on that LR. impossible to miss almost.]

2500 pts even


Expanding my Gunline tactics and lists into 'ard boyz point levels.

the idea is...

Captain goes with the Terminators.

[chappy better here]

Tac squads split. Special weapon and Sarg go in Transport. Heavy weapons deploy in cover(hopefully a bolstered ruin)

[sorry, didn't see this before]

Dreadnoughts form backbone of the gunline, they will take advantage of cover to make the most of their Venerable status(4+ cover + Venerable=really tough to kill) BS5 with TL weapons makes my fire nearly 100% accurate.

[I see. Try giving them all lascannons and missile launchers if you can! fun fun fun!]

Landspeeders back the Dreadnoughts up with weight of fire and can use their speed to respond to threats.
i could run them seperatly if you think that is best?

[yeah, good idea, keep them in reserve, kinda like your cavalry. they come in when the enemy is least expecting, go pew pew and route some enemy infantry]

Landraider is a gunboat/mobile bunker.

[not a good idea. land raiders tend to get mushed up.] keep the terminators in front of that land raider, and to the side. 4+ cover + AV 14 + ignor shaken/stunned = a motherwhopping big problem.

Scouts outflank to project a 12" danger zone for enemy vehicles around the edges of the board. depending on the missions that come up they might infiltrate. they are also my backup troops choice incase my Tacs get wiped.

[shotguns. shotguns]

MOTF will run around fixing things that break.

[as is his wont.]

What think you?

What think I?

it's a pretty solid list, risking a little shooty troops for some more dangerous units. consider taking out the speeders for tactical marines, and you'd have a pretty big monster. [though I recognise it's not necesarily the best representation]

Think about shotguns:

20 shooting attacks, mean that you do around 2 wounds, and thats against space men.
then you assault, and your space men enemy does 9 attacks [7 tacs, 2 sarge] and you take one or two wounds and give about 2.

who wins.

same situation with bolt pistols, you're likely to tak out one, then charge into combat, but your enemy has 9 guys now. will kill about three.

the Captain not actually adding anything to the army. Consider a Librarian or Chaplain.

Two plasmas in a CS is fine because only two can fire out a Rhino hatch and you don't want to get out unless you have to.

Combi weaps on the sgts help boost the fire power of the squads.

5 Scouts probably won't last in combat that long.

You don't need Venerables with autocannons, just get normal Dreadnoughts. Venerables are too expensive.

Terminators appear to have no transport as a Land Raider carries 12, so foot isn't cool and you have no teleporter homers for deep striking.

Not really a gunline army tbh.

I gotta agree with Mercer on this on, its not really a gun line.

If I was going to build upon this army heres what I'd do.

Start with a Master of the Forge, give him a conversion beamer.

Take 3 Dreads as Elites and 3 as Heavy Support, give half of them AC/AC and the other half AC/LC

Then fill it out from there, leaning heavily towards tactical squads with LC/PG Razorbacks.

....bike on the conversion beamer purely so he can relocate and still shoot thanks to the bikes relentless

I'm not a big fan of the bike on the beamer, I dont like haveing a IC alone without an invulnerable save. I generally put him in with the stay put in the backfield part of a tactical squad. But alot of people use the beamer on a bike very sucessfully, at 2500 points you could probably afford to throw in a few extra bikes for a wound sink.

At 2500 that's... crazy little troops.
20 Tacs in rhinos and some scouts are what one would expect at 1500.

The only real 'hammer' is the Termies in the Raider, but...they are tactical termies, so it's somewhat iffy.

There is alot of fat around the list in general.
Saving points from all those places can net you enough points for more troops IMO.

Catyrpelius wrote:I'm not a big fan of the bike on the beamer, I dont like haveing a IC alone without an invulnerable save. I generally put him in with the stay put in the backfield part of a tactical squad. But alot of people use the beamer on a bike very sucessfully, at 2500 points you could probably afford to throw in a few extra bikes for a wound sink.

I agree, it's just good to move. What could do is still do the RB's as you suggested but take heavy weaps and then combat squad and stick the MOTF in there.

All in all, it isn't a bad list, but there are some adjustments I'd make if you're considering this list for an 'Ard Boyz Tournament.

I'll go item by item with you...

Grey Templar wrote:HQ
Captain (Terminator armour) 140 pts
Command squad (4 plasma guns) 175 pts
Rhino 35 pts

MOTF (3 servitors, Power weapon) 145 pts

Like what some have noted, your Captain isn't adding anything to the list. You're far better off with a Librarian in Terminator Armor and a Storm Shield. Null Zone is almost a guarantee "Must Have" Psychic Power, and being that he's in Terminator Armor, Vortex of Doom is another viable power to take.

As for the MOTF, ditch the Power Weapon, and give him a Conversion Beam. Find a piece of terrain on your side of the board (which you would obviously use "Bolster Defenses" on), and send beams of death to all that you can see.

Then, lose the Command Squad, and put the points into another Tactical Squad, or combine the points with your Scouts, and make a full 10 man Scout or Tactical Squad with it.

Grey Templar wrote:
Troops
10 man Tac squad (Powerfist, Combi-melta, Melta gun, Lascannon) 220 pts
Rhino 35 pts

10 man Tac squad (Power weapon, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Lascannon) 205 pts
Rhino 35 pts

Scout squad (Powerfist, Melta bombs, 4 BP/CCW scouts) 105 pts

Nice start for Troops, except I wouldn't give the 2nd Sgt a Combi weapon. Give him a Bolt Pistol (or Plasma Pistol) so he can get the extra CC attack. I also wouldn't give the Scout Sgt Melta Bombs either since he already has a Power Fist. You're better off giving that to the 2nd Sgt. so he'll have a chance of punching through high AV's.

One thing I also like to do is Combat Squading my Tact Squads, and taking Razorbacks instead. You could then put the Sgt and Assault Weapon carrier in the Razorback, and leave your Heavy Weapon carriers on the backfield to shoot from far away. This way, you potentially can take advantage of all your weapons in the same turn. And since you have a MOTF, your Heavy Weapon guys can chill with him in the same structure, provided there's enough room.

Grey Templar wrote:Elites
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
Venerable Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 185 pts
7 man Terminator squad (Cyclone missile launcher) 310 pts

Also good, except I'd try to give a few of your Terminators Chain Fists also. Not all of them need it, just maybe 3 or 4. And as long as you keep your Venerable's in cover or close to cover when they need it, you won't need Extra Armor.

Grey Templar wrote:Fast Attack
3 Landspeeders (3 Typhoons) 270 pts

Don't keep these guys in a squadron. Separate them into 3 different units. Now your opponent has 3 different targets, and you don't have to focus all of your fire power at one unit per turn.

Grey Templar wrote:Heavy Support
Venerable Dreadnought (TL-lascannon, missile launcher) 205 pts
Landraider 250 pts

You most DEFINITELY want your Land Raider to have Extra Armor, and reason being is because it's going to be transporting over 500 points worth of your army in it. For that thing to get "Stunned" just so you can sit there and wait for it to get moving again would be a HUGE waste. Find the 15 points for it. You won't regret you did.

Now as far as it being a gunline army, you don't have a lot of things that make me go "Wow, that's a lot of shots". Albeit, you have very accurate shooting with 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts and a MOTF, these aren't things that scream out "Take Cover!" to your opponent. You may want to consider taking Devastator Squads with Missile Launchers instead. Personally, I don't believe in using Land Raiders for games under 3000 Points, but that's just my opinion. They are honestly the biggest point sinks in the entire SM list. That being said, if you took that out, you'd then have enough for a Dev Squad with ML's AND have points left over.

The Land Speeders, while not necessary, will add some versatility in getting shots at units that are harder to spot from your stationary units. And if you end up going the route with Devastator Squads, consider taking out your last Venerable Dreadnought for them.

Hope my advice helps, and good luck!
~Rurouni

I'd say in a gunline there's almost no point taking Terminators and Land Raiders. Get yourself 2 more Troops choices or some Vindicators for the points you save...

MOTF, Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks with min Tacticals, Devs, Thunderfire cannons all work as gunlines. Just switch the Dreadnoughts to normal ones as mentioned and sort out the vehicles and will be ok.

the captain was really a vehicle to get the command squad, but swapping him out for a Libby will likely be better(i love my quad plaz command squad)

I guess i could drop venerable on the dreds. really wanted it because a Venerable dred in cover is insanely difficult to kill.

i really want the MOTF to be able to fix my Dreds and tanks so putting a beamer on him isn't condusive to that and he can't take servitors if he is on a bike. I could put him on a bike without servitors and have basic armament.


HQ
Librarian (Terminator armor and SS)Null Zone and Vortex) 140 pts

MOTF (Bike) 135 pts

Troops
10 man Tac squad (Powerfist, Combi-melta, Melta gun, Lascannon) 220 pts
Rhino 35 pts

10 man Tac squad (Power weapon, Melta bombs, Flamer, Lascannon) 200 pts
Razorback (Stormbolter) 50 pts

10 man tac squad (Power weapon, Plasma Pistol, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon) 215 pts
Rhino (Stormbolter) 45 pts

Scout squad (Powerfist, Melta bombs, 2 BP/CCW scouts, 2 shotgun scouts) 105 pts

Elites
Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 125 pts
Dreadnought (2 TL-Auto-cannons) 125 pts
5 Assault Terminators(TH/SS) 200 pts
Landraider (EA) 260 pts

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Typhoon 90 pts
Landspeeder Typhoon 90 pts
Landspeeder Typhoon 90 pts

Heavy Support
Dreadnought (TL-lascannon, missile launcher) 145 pts
Vindicator 115 pts
Vindicator 115 pts

2500 pts

Librarian goes with Terminators in LR for Null Zone projection. MOTF no longer fixs automatically, but is faster and tougher.

Flamer squad now has a shootier transport.
BTW: all Tac squads will be parking their HWs in cover.

new plasma squad has a rhino with 2 SBs for that extra punch.

Compromised on the scout squad with 2 shotguns and 2 BP/CCW. i don't want all my scouts to be stuck with only 2 attacks each on the charge. Kept the MBs because i had the pts leftover after alterations. could move the MBs to the 3rd Tac squad if needed.

Assault terminators are a hammer unit now. they can either provide CC protection for my other squads or they can go on the offensive and kill something.

Landspeeders are seperate now.

ok.....but you're now moving away from a Gunline with the introduction of terminators and librarian in terminator armour....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whole point of a gunline is you DON'T split your gunline up with units that "go on the offensive"....

Gunlines can have dedicated CC units.

the Hammer/anvil units purpose is to prevent other CC units from taking out/tying my shooty units up in CC so they can do their job.

they can go on the offensive if required(I am facing a shooty Guard army that won't be assaulting me, there is an objective that needs contesting at the end of the game...)


Marine gunlines don't function like Guard and T'au gunlines who sacrifice most of their close ranged firepower for the ability to blast you from afar while remaining relativly stationary. SM gunlines operate by shooting the enemy with concentrated firepower at vulnerable targets while having the tactical flexability to go on the offensive with rhino combat squads and Assault terminators(whos primary task is to allow the guns to keep firing, but if that isn't required then they can do an offensive job)


IMOHO: this is how marines should be, and are meant to be, played. they are a shooty army supported by assault elements.

Ok so you know your opponent. THey're going to be a very shooty army.

IMPERIAL GUARD CAN OUTSHOOT MARINES EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.

You need an assault army.

You've got 2500 points to play with.
Might I suggest the following:

MotF
Conversion Beamer
Bike
Power Sword
170

Chapter Master
Digital Weapons
Artificer Armour
Relic Blade
Storm Shield

195

Honour Guard (5 man)
Chapter Banner
x 5 Relic Blades
x 5 Aux Grenade Launchers
DT: Rhino w/ Extra Armour

410


ELITES

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Flamer
Assault Launchers
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
215

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer
Chainfist
HK Missile
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
210

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer
Chainfist
HK Missile
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
210

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Multi-Melta
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
260

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Powerfist & Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Multi-Melta
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon
260

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Power sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino
225

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Power sword & Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino
225

HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator
HK Missile

135


2495

Honor guard....

Bring the most overpriced units in the Codex to 'Ard boyz?



Marines cannot outshoot guard if the guard don't want them too. this is true.

BUT

my list contains assault elements as well as shooty elements for just such an event. if he decides to shoot my LR he isn't shooting at my Dreds and Vindicators who will get into position an will blast him off.

I am going to try to use this list tonight and will let you know how it does. we have a guard player who brings balanced lists(no leafblower) and is pretty good.

Good luck! tell us how it went