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Hey all, so my brother and I have nearly completed all of our minis and are preparing for our first "real" match.
All-in-all, I plan to use these units when playing against others, but the most common army I will be up against will be my brother's CSM Khorne army.
I know I have expensive units, especially the HQ at 210, but my bro loves taking a Khorne Daemon weapon, and I need something that can take a beating and dish out hell in return.

Here is my new list:
--------------------
HQ
--------------------
Librarian w/ Epistolary (Smite/Avenger, Null Zone)
150pts

--------------------
Elite
--------------------
10 Stern w/ 3xCombi-Melta, 2xCombi-Flamer
275pts

Techmarine w/ Harness, PW
4 Servitors w/ 2xHB
>Razorback w/ SB
90pts/95pts/50pts

--------------------
Troop
--------------------
10 Marines w/ PG, LC
>Rhino w/ SB
190pts/45pts

10 Marines w/ PG, LC
190pts

5 Sniper w/ HB, 5xCamo
100pts

--------------------
Heavy Support
--------------------
10 Devs w/ 4xML
230pts

Predator w/ HB Sponsons
85pts

[NOTES]
-Libby will move with Stern. If I play my bro, I will use Smite to take out termie CSM.
-Techie will move with Razorback and Predator, provides heavy fire support. Repair if needed and move aggressively. I hear Techies get shot up fast, so move using tanks as cover and repair as needed.
-Snipers fire long range inside ruins with techie bolster if possible... good luck killing these guys at range.
-Devs and second Marines will combat squad. first Marines may or may not with Rhino, depends on map.

Original List inside spoilers


[EDIT1] New list based on critiques

I do not have the cash flow to buy new sets, so please try to avoid suggesting what I don't own.

This is what other minis I have available to work with:
Captain w/ Jump Pack, Relic Blade, Storm Shield
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack
5xTermies w/ TH/SS
5xAssault w/ PF, Flamer
1xMarine w/ Meltagun

Anyways, please beat up my army as you see fit. As long as it is constructive, I will appreciate all comments.

List is ok, but why the spoilers? 5 man Assault Squad isn't clever though, drop it. Assault Terminators on foot aren't cool either.

yeh, I agree. why the spoilers.
drop assaulties completely. they'll get beat up before they get into combat. and drop those devs, take a land raider instead

problem: a fully troop army doesn't work for sm. you need way more bodies, and many more tanks.

in my 3,000 point army, I have a swarm 75 space men, and 8-10 tanks.

in my 1,500 point, I have at least a land raider, or a whirlwind/vindicator.

heavy tank power is a must for space men, as they can't rely on footslogging. thats why we have all of 15 ish infantry types. we MUST HAVE TANKS. we have 16 differentish tanks.

we have:
Razorback
rhino
Drop pod
3 dreadnought
4 speeder types
3 land raiders
2 predator types
whirlwinds
vindicators
the imperium RELIES on tanks. there is no other way for them. footslogging just doesn't work in this game.

Captain Solon wrote:yeh, I agree. why the spoilers.
drop assaulties completely. they'll get beat up before they get into combat. and drop those devs, take a land raider instead

Don't drop Devs for Land Raider.....

And a Drop Pod isn't a tank

The only suggestion I'd make is to drop the scouts and use the extra points to turn the Rhinos into Razorbacks, this will give you alot of additional firepower.

soltyrei wrote:Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, Auxilary GL, Digital Weapons, Jump Pack

He could lose some weight, like the XGL and Digi-Weps. Digis are only good for *one* re-roll per-go. Also, he already has an Iron Halo; the SS is a lot of points for one better Invuln Save.

soltyrei wrote:5 Assaults w/ PF, Flamer

As others said, they ought to go. I generally have found to not field any SM unit under a full 10, especially a h2h crew. That said ....

soltyrei wrote:10 Devs w/ 4xML

You could save a couple points by dumping 2 SM here. I would run my Devs with 8 guys, finding it to be the right balance of enough guys to survive to Turn 4, or the whole game without seeing bolter boys kick back all day while their ML buddies do all the shooting.

Bigger changes:
1. I'd out the jumpers in favor of your pred.
2. Libby in for Cap't (since he was with the jumpers)

Or, proxy in those other 5 SM for jumpers until you do get the models ... *if* you keep the jumpers, give them the chaplain instead of the cap't.

Totally agree on Captain.
Captain w/ Relic Blade, Digi Weapons (cause that reroll to wound IS worth it if you only get one hit!), and Jump Pack is:

165.

A saving of 45 points! that's enough to get a Rhino w/ Extra armour!

LOSE THE TERMINATORS

you have no land raider so they have to deep strike in or move and run each turn. that means they'll be in the open a lot and even a 3++ save doesn't help you as often as you think. Some weapons you think will never kill a TH/SS terminator somehow manage to get one of them off guard......then another.......then another......

Invest in your sternguard. give them more men (up to 10) and use the saved points from your terminators to give them a rhino and more combi-weapons.

So let's see what you could take if you do all that:

HQ
Captain w/ artificer armour, digi weapons, jump pack
165

Chaplain w/ Jump Pack & Digi Weapons

135

ELITES

Sternguard (10 man)
x 3 Combi-Melta
x 4 Combi-Plasma
Rhino (predator proxied as rhino)
320

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
190

Scout Squad (5 man)
x 4 Sniper Rifles
x 1 HB
x5 Camo Cloaks
100

Fast Attack

Assault Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claws
Flamer
230

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (6 man)
x4 ML
166

1496 points.

I've given you a chaplain to go alongside your captain. With the full 10 man squad you'll find:

Your assault squad will get a lot of firepower directed at it. Make sure you use this to your advantage and pour fire from your sternguard and Devs into those units firing at the assault squad.

Your assault squad will thrash just about everything it comes against. you're looking at (on the charge):
Captain: 4 attacks
Chaplain: 4 attacks
Assault Sergeant: 4 attacks
Flamer Marine: 2 attacks
9 Assault Marines: 27 attacks

41 attacks on the charge of which:
4 are at Str 6 (with one being rerolled to wound)
4 at Str 4 with 1 being rerolled to wound
4 at str 4 with 4 being rerolled to wound!
29 at str 4
ALL OF THESE ARE REROLL TO HIT

In a word, if your assault squad gets anywhere near a huge group of orks......the orks will die.

DO NOT TAKE ASSAULT MARINES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, I used the exact setup that's above for a long time, 10 man squad w/ LC's, Flamers, led by a friggin Chaplain!
IT DOES NOT WORK. They die so fast it's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, they can do some damage if they get there, but still.

If you are completely set on taking Assault Marines (which I still don't reccomend at all) take them in a 10 man squad, so at least they can get shot a couple times and still have someone left with to assault, and hide them behind rhinos.
AS IN COMPLETELY. They cannot be allowed to draw line of sight. Even a 4+ cover save is moot. Im serious, these guys are ridiculous fire magnets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DO NOT TAKE ASSAULT MARINES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, I used the exact setup that's above for a long time, 10 man squad w/ LC's, Flamers, led by a friggin Chaplain!
IT DOES NOT WORK. They die so fast it's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, they can do some damage if they get there, but still.

If you are completely set on taking Assault Marines (which I still don't reccomend at all) take them in a 10 man squad, so at least they can get shot a couple times and still have someone left with to assault, and hide them behind rhinos.
AS IN COMPLETELY. They cannot be allowed to draw line of sight. Even a 4+ cover save is moot. Im serious, these guys are ridiculous fire magnets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry bout the double post, but I just now saw that he wants to attach the Captain to the squad. There is no way that that squad would not get shot to pieces the first turn.

Start them in cover. and use them to take out understrength units. then pop them back in cover.

12" movement then D6 run means they can move up to 18" in a turn. if you can't move from cover to cover with that mobility something's wrong with you lol.

Thanks for the comments.

I also agree about the Assaults, I know 5-man is a big red flag, I just didn't want my HQ to get lonely. I will likely drop them as everyone suggested.

With the Assaults out, my Predator will probably go in for sure.

As for my HQ, I know the points are much, I will consider dropping some gear. Also, I may just take my Libby instead. A lone jump pack seems... lonely. Would Epistolary be worth it? My lists typically include it, but I don't have experience in-game.

All my combi-weapons are converted, and I don't have anymore spares, so I'm stuck with what I've got. I do have enough spare minis to give the stern 10-man though, so that will happen.

And I forgot to mention, but one of my Rhinos is actually a Razorback and I can easily switch between the two. The problem though is I can only have a Razorback and Rhino or two Rhinos.

Also, I will likely not drop those Devs. I do like the idea of making them 8-man though. Although my original idea was to Combat squad pretty much every squad, so what would be better? 5 and 5 of 2xML each? or an 8-man with 4xML?

My big question is whether I should drop the Termies as Corennus suggested. I know a lone Pred is a flag, so if I drop them, should I add in my Techie with the Servitors?

If I had the money, I'd have a Redeemer for my Termies, but sadly that isn't the case yet. Also, I plan to grab two Ravenwing Battleforce sets and two Ironclads, one day...

Thanks for all the advice.

Crusader for terminators better than redeemer IMO. You want to kill stuff before you get within charge range.

Alright, so updated the list in the first post. Think this would be viable list until I can get my hands on some new sets?

Thank You

Corennus wrote:Crusader for terminators better than redeemer IMO. You want to kill stuff before you get within charge range.

Only advantage to using a Crusader over the Redeemer is that it can carry more Terminators. If you're not using more than 5 Terminators in a squad, then the Redeemer is the better (and cheaper choice). Both have the Frag Assault Launchers and the Assault Ramp, so no differences there. The one and only drawback to taking the Redeemer over the Crusader is you lose the Hurricane Bolters as your Defensive Weapons. But if you're moving at least 12" each turn (which most people would do early on to get their Terminators into combat quickly), then Defensive Weapons are irrelevant. The Flamestorm Cannons on the Redeemer are also AMAZING at killing Marines, Chaos or otherwise.

The problem with that theory is that C:SM does not have sufficient assault support for a single assault terminator unit. If you had 2 land raiders full of terminators, then dual LRRs might be better than dual LRCs. However, with a single 5 man unit of terminators rushing into combat is normally a good way to lose the LRwhatever to melta fire, and the terminators to mass small arms fire. A cunning opponent won't allow your 5 man unit to tie up enough to last multiple phases. The LRC allows you to spend a couple turns moving at 6" around the 20" mark pouring firepower (it can fire all weapons including MM) to soften up the enemy.

I use the LRC for my 5 man terminator squad, and it has proven effective. I do not like the way the LRR forces you to close the gap into flame template (thus melta) range, and remain stationary to fire all weapons.