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Bit of an interesting one came up last night.

I'm attacking a land raider with terminators, and I had been inflicted damage on it such that it had been immobilised, and all of its weapons had been destroyed - or so I thought.

Now normally when you inflict an "immobilised" or "weapon destroyed" result on a vehicle that has already been immobilised and lost all of its weapons, it's destroyed - wrecked isnt it?

My opponent said that his HK missile which he had upgraded the land raider with counted as a weapon (which i'll grant was not fired during the game), and as such my final "weapon destroyed" roll did not wreck the land raider.

After having a flick through the codex, HK missiles are in the Vehicle upgrades section.... but I can see why his case for it being a weapon would be a valid one.

Any thoughts on this?

Do hunter killer missiles shoot stuff? Does it have a profile?

Yes and Yes.

It's a weapon, plain and simple.

If he fires the missile, is the LR destroyed?

A vehicle that has lost all of its weapons and is immobilized is not destroyed. There needs to be one extra weapon destroyed or immobilized result to destroy it. So if the tank was immobilized every weapon but the HK had been destroyed, the Russ would still not be destroyed by firing the HK, it would still need one more damage result to take it out completely.

Soup and a roll wrote:If he fires the missile, is the LR destroyed?

No. Just because you fire it doesn't mean it vanishes. It may be one shot only, but it still counts towards WD results.

Soup and a roll wrote:If he fires the missile, is the LR destroyed?

What am I missing here? I have no idea what this question is supposed to infer.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Soup and a roll wrote:If he fires the missile, is the LR destroyed?

What am I missing here? I have no idea what this question is supposed to infer.

I am not sure if the Poster was asking if firing the missile after all other weapons are destroyed, if it then becomes destroyed(the answer is no)

Or

If the HK missile was fired in a previous turn and all other weapons were destroyed, and the tank is immobilized does the next WD result inflict a destroyed status(answer is still no, for reasons cited by Gwar)

A weapon without ammo is still a weapon(a harmless one, but a weapon just the same), and there are no provisions in the rule that a weapon be capable of firing to be eligible for a weapon destroyed to destroy it(after all that would open up Shaken/stunned shenanigans)

PS: Guard and all marine Codecis state in the hunter killer missile rules that they are treated as an additional weapon(again with no provision that they only count until fired).

Ah, the HK missile may still be there, but what about a Seeker missile on a Tau tank?

That's not a missile launcher, just a missile, which in practice would detach and pewpew the enemy.

Also worth noting that Seeker missiles 1) can be fired regardless of the vehicle's movement and 2) cannot be fired by the vehicle itself, except 3) by Skyrays, and that's actually the Skyray firing its markerlight, not the missile.

And it does have a profile, but fires at an "assumed BS5."

So does a fired Seeker missile on a Tau tank count as a weapon for WD results?

Does a not yet fired Seeker missile even count?

hey yeah, what happens if your fully immobilised and have lost all weapons, except no weapon destroyed result has been allocated to the HKM. The HKM fires and THEN the land raider gets another WD hit, does it kill the empty HKM or destroy the tank?

Jaon wrote:hey yeah, what happens if your fully immobilised and have lost all weapons, except no weapon destroyed result has been allocated to the HKM. The HKM fires and THEN the land raider gets another WD hit, does it kill the empty HKM or destroy the tank?

The game makes no distinction between a weapon with and a weapon without ammunition that I am aware of other then the one without has nothing to fire.

There is some debate as to whether or not a HK missile should count as a weapons for Damage purposes, and as to whether or not that status changes when it is fired.

So far as I follow the RAW, it's a weapon (because it has the profile of a ranged weapon) and remains so after it is fired (because the rules don't say to change its status... it's an upgrade that counts as a weapon that can only be fired once, rather than an upgrade that counts as a weapon until it is used.


That being said, I usually play that it is ignored once it's been used.

How is there some debate? pg 61 "Weapon Destroyed - This can include vehicle upgrades such as pintle/HK".

Yeah for book in front of me.

mrwhoop wrote:How is there some debate? pg 61 "Weapon Destroyed - This can include vehicle upgrades such as pintle/HK".

I said 'should'... not 'does'...

@Mr Whoop - Ok that was a bit of a fail by me....

So we;ve established that if a HK is still to be fired, it can count as a weapon for "Weapon Destroyed". However, after taking a skim through my SM codex last night, the entry for the HK says that the vehicle is upgraded with a missile, NOT a missile launcher. I believe that Insaniak is correct, and that once the HK is fired, that's it, it's gone - there is no "empty missile launcher" in its place. The codex is very specific in saying that it counts as a weapon That can only be used once. Hence once it's fired, it can't be used again - for any purpose.

In any event, this wouldn't have affected my game as described in the OP, as the HK was not yet fired (and thus WOULD have been a viable target for the WD result).

^ This conclusion also meshes well with Tau weaponry.

As I stated previously in this thread, while Imperial one-use missiles leave something (a launcher, a sheath, anything) behind in most cases (notable exception being IG flyers), Tau seeker missiles, once fired, leave no evidence they were ever there. There's no mount for them, no launcher. It's just a missile.

So I agree with the above.

Ah, my apologizes. I just didn't understand how there'd be a debate when it RAWs pintle and HK. I could swear that some IG tank I got had a little box for the HK and that could be blown off...wonder where it is now.

Anyway thanks to the op/users/mod for answers and questions.

My HK Missile upgrade for my old Predator has a launcher housing, and since the launcher and housing is added when purchasing through the HK upgrade, you would have to destroy it before wrecking a vehicle. even if the ammo is gone, the weapon remains (and can be reloaded assuming it was not blown off)

DeathReaper wrote:My HK Missile upgrade for my old Predator has a launcher housing, and since the launcher and housing is added when purchasing through the HK upgrade, you would have to destroy it before wrecking a vehicle. even if the ammo is gone, the weapon remains (and can be reloaded assuming it was not blown off)

So playing WYSIWYG, would you argue that I had to destroy your empty HK launcher before I could immobilize your vehicle with a 3, but you would not have to destroy the void where my Tau Seeker missile used to be?

That destandardizes things, and gives you something of an advantage. Why can't I pay an extra 10 points for my vehicle to absorb another Weapon Destroyed result, but you can?

well since the HK Missile launcher is still there, i would say you would have to WD it before immobilizing a vehicle (even though the missile that was there has been shot.